German atlantic ops

[guy]

hey guys

Germany has quite a few options for attacking Uk naval assets during the first several rounds. 
However, hitting EVERYTHING isn’t feasible for turn 1. 
What are the best SZs to hit and why? (not to mention HOW)

I generally opt for hitting 110 (3 ftr/tac, 2 SS) and 111 (1 ftr/tac, 2 bom, 2 SS). Then I’ll send my leftover sub to canada for a 50-50 fight for that Transport.

But I’ve heard of folks leaving 110 alone all together G1.  wouldn’t that allow UK to slip down into the med and really skew the power balance down there?

just basically wondering what’s the most efficient way to harass UK, and provide the best Sea Lion option (tho more often then not, i end up going the other way)

[Spendo02]

SZ111:  1 Ftr, 1 Tac, 2 Bomber, 2 SS, 1 BB
SZ110:  2 SS, 3 Ftr, 3 Tac
SZ106: 1 SS

SZ110 I take losses: SS, SS, Ftr, Tac, Ftr.  If the second round of combat is me taking a Tac as the first loss, I retreat and will finish it off on G2.

[KillOFzee]

@Spendo02:

SZ111:  1 Ftr, 1 Tac, 2 Bomber, 2 SS, 1 BB
SZ110:  2 SS, 3 Ftr, 3 Tac
SZ106: 1 SS

This is optimal. If the British scramble they will most likely lose their planes, and sea lion will be easy. If they don’t, the UK navy will be wiped out, giving you obvious advantage.

[Guest]

Another approach is to make Britain poor by hitting z106, z109, z111, and SBR the London IC and airbase.  This only works if you make them think you are seriously doing a sea lion (maybe you are).  Building infantry with SBR damage is expensive and without destroyers your subs convoy raid them nicely.  Heck, once they realize you aren’t doing sea lion they still suffer even more economic damage as they spend what little money they have on destroyers.

OR how about this one: don’t attack the UK navy at all.  Watch your opponent scratch his head as the Luftwaffe destroys Paris with just a minimum of infantry/artillery to soak hits.  NCM all mech, armor and any infantry/artillery within range to Poland and Hungary for a massive G2 Barbarossa.  Build all mech and armor the first 2 turns and then bombers.  If Japan restrains itself from attacking until turn 4, Germany may be well on the way to exterminating the Russians before America can say much about it.

[shohoku201]

@KillOFzee:

@Spendo02:

SZ111:  1 Ftr, 1 Tac, 2 Bomber, 2 SS, 1 BB
SZ110:  2 SS, 3 Ftr, 3 Tac
SZ106: 1 SS

This is optimal. If the British scramble they will most likely lose their planes, and sea lion will be easy. If they don’t, the UK navy will be wiped out, giving you obvious advantage.

By attacking SZ 111 with Germany’s BB and not taking out UK’s DD in SZ 109, doesn’t that mean Germany’s BB will most certainly be destroyed by the DD and RAF on UK1?  Is this optimal?

[barney]

It may or may not be optimal but it will almost certainly be destroyed if it survives at all G1

one sub at 106 seems too weak

another option would be
2 subs 106
2 subs BB 2tb 2ftr bmbr 110
sub 2tb 2ftr bmbr 111

if uk scrambles let the BB take the hits
if not it will probably kill the dsty on defense which,hopefully,leaves uk with no dsty

I like the air power over the BB,but both have their merits

[Spendo02]

I would happily trade my BB to remove all starting UK aircraft and potentially remove all UK ships from the Atlantic by G2.

I don’t see SZ106 as essential to my strategy to send two SS into it.  My goal is not to stop units from arriving in the UK, but to destroy all UK aircraft and its starting ships.  DD aren’t going to make or break a Sea Lion, nor will 1 Inf, 1 Arm.

Further, the BB is not essential to protecting W.Germany or my Sea Lion chances.  To me, it is best used as first a hit absorber, and then a lure for the UK to try to remove it on UK1 - which then exposes the rest of its fleet to accomplish it.

[knp7765]

@Vance:

OR how about this one: don’t attack the UK navy at all.  Watch your opponent scratch his head as the Luftwaffe destroys Paris with just a minimum of infantry/artillery to soak hits.  NCM all mech, armor and any infantry/artillery within range to Poland and Hungary for a massive G2 Barbarossa.  Build all mech and armor the first 2 turns and then bombers.  If Japan restrains itself from attacking until turn 4, Germany may be well on the way to exterminating the Russians before America can say much about it.

This is a VERY interesting idea. I’ve always been so intent on killing the Royal Navy that I almost never send planes to France. With only 1 AA gun, France only gets 3 shots at your planes and will likely only hit 1 or none. Now that I think about it, as long as Germany holds on to Denmark, UK can’t hurt them too bad. They could take Norway or perhaps even Holland/Belgium, but nothing catastrophic and certainly nothing that would affect Germany’s Barbarossa plans.
Of course, UK could sail their navy down to the Med and really give Italy a hard time but if Italy turtles up a bit and protects N Italy and S Italy, that should be golden for Germany as they can concentrate even more on Russia.

[Gargantua]

This is a VERY interesting idea

The idea of nuking french ground units (That are going to die anyways) instead of british naval units, is very similar to the idea of throwing dollars away to save dimes.

Kudos for a new concept, but I don’t see Germany benefitting from it in the long run.

[Spendo02]

I don’t see the benefits for Germany by the Allies having 2 BB, 3 CR and a DD in the Sea and not having to decide on what to do with the 4 Ftr (3 UK) in England that realistically ends up being 6-7 aircraft by the time the UK makes its move onto France and is capable of potentially holding it.

Thats not exactly what I want to have to think about when I march on Moscow.

Dead UK ships means a turn to build Ftr to protect ships, building ships to further defend the TT, then building TT, then adding more ground units to fill the TT.

No dead ships or aircraft advances UK by two turns in that procedure.

[Guest]

OK I haven’t tried this out, but here’s what I am thinking.  I know this is way off the wall but hey its different at least….

Germany builds a Major IC in Romania on G1. Attack France with 7 infantry, 2 artillery, and ALL of the planes (I ran an odds calculator on this and you should lose only the infantry and 1 artillery on average, plus maybe 1 fighter to AA).  Attack Yugoslavia using all the mech and armor (no inf/art).  Use the transport to NCM 1 infantry from Norway and an artillery from West Germany over to Poland.  There will be something like 6 artillery, 24 infantry, and a couple AA in Hungary/Poland, and all the mechs and tanks that survive will be in yugo.  The only naval action is z106 and maybe z91.  Activate Finland but leave Bulgaria, South France and later Greece for Italy to mop up.
Japan takes 4 chinese territories, including Chahar. Build nothing to save $26 and keep everyone confused. You also need to take FIC and 1 Soviet territory to have $69 in the bank

Now on round 2 Germany builds 10 mech in Romania and infantry elsewhere.  The whole mob moves into East Poland.  If you are in an aggressive mood, they could also be 10 armor instead.  5 Finns go to Norway to defend it.
Japan takes Suiyuyan.  Build 3 tac, 3 bombers.  Still no attack on allies

Round 3 Germany builds another 10 mechs and moves everybody into North Ukraine, including the new mechs built last turn.  Any spare change goes to infantry in France.  A few German fighters hold down the fort in the West but the Bombers move East.
Japan builds an airbase in Suiyuyan (yes you read that right), and lands ALL of its planes in Suiyuyan.  Yes ALL of them.  Turtle the navy to z6 and build infantry.

Round 4 another batch of mechs in Romania and everybody goes to Bryansk.  Crush anything that’s there.  All fighters go East.
Japan SBR’s Moscow with 5 Bombers and a dozen escort fighters (just to further demoralize the enemy) and lands in Bryansk.

Round 5 This time build bombers in Romania and strafe Moscow until infantry/mechs are exhausted.  USSR can only build a small number of infantry due to 20 SBR damage.  Japan suicides the 20ish planes to kill high value units.

Round 6 Germany exterminates the Bolskevik.  :evil:

I know this sounds crazy, but I did an odds calculation assuming Russia turtles every last unit to Moscow, builds nothing but infantry the whole time, and only loses East Poland, North Ukraine, Bryansk.  Even in that best case scenario they don’t have enough.

[Gargantua]

LOL I like it.

But…

it’s an ALL OUT GAMBLE.  You lose BOTH Europe and Pacific maps if something goes wrong.  And is conquering Russia ENOUGH to win the game?  Especially when you’ve left India, Anzac, UK, USA Alone?

You are bound to get Italy STOMPED in the Med, and suffer landings all across western europe. The allies will pour in through the middleeast, and Norway/Finland Karelia.

[Spendo02]

@barney:

It may or may not be optimal but it will almost certainly be destroyed if it survives at all G1

one sub at 106 seems too weak

another option would be
2 subs 106
2 subs BB 2tb 2ftr bmbr 110
sub 2tb 2ftr bmbr 111

if uk scrambles let the BB take the hits
if not it will probably kill the dsty on defense which,hopefully,leaves uk with no dsty

I like the air power over the BB,but both have their merits

Don’t get me wrong, Convoy is great if you can manage it against the UK.

However lets look at it from a different perspective:

UK1 will take convoy damage from SZ106 - thats good (at Most 3 IPC on UK1 and UK2).  The bad is that a DD can still move in and attack subs that defend at 1 in SZ106.

UK2 taking convoy damage with Sea Lion coming means less IPC collected at the end of UK2 and less for Germany to claim on G3 - thats bad.

UK3 from London won’t happen for income purposes if you take London on G3.

From that perspective, it is better to NOT worry about Convoy damage if you plan to Sea Lion.  It is FAR better to protect your Aircraft by taking SS as losses on G1 so that you have escorts for your Bombers heading to SBR London on G2 and then more Aircraft to support the G3 Sea Lion.

I think the scariest issue for G1 in SZ110 is that the two SS there can ONLY be hit by ships due to no DD present.  That exposes your 3 Ftr/Tac to the potential 3 scrambling Ftr.

[Spendo02]

@Gargantua:

LOL I like it.

But…

it’s an ALL OUT GAMBLE.  You lose BOTH Europe and Pacific maps if something goes wrong.  And is conquering Russia ENOUGH to win the game?  Especially when you’ve left India, Anzac, UK, USA Alone?

You are bound to get Italy STOMPED in the Med, and suffer landings all across western europe. The allies will pour in through the middleeast, and Norway/Finland Karelia.

Don’t the Axis have to lose Tokyo, Rome AND Berlin?  Nothing wrong with Turtle in the Pacific TBH as Japan can sit out up to 3 rounds with 10 IPC for being Neutral and just screw around in China and Eastern Russia lying in wait for the Allies in SZ6.

If Japan’s only real purchase is an AB, the remaining IPC Japan has can turtle itself up nicely on Tokyo making it a non-play for the Allies until mid/late game at the earliest with a big investment from the US.

[Guest]

@Gargantua:

it’s an ALL OUT GAMBLE.

yep sure is.  But if it works you got Russia out of the game by round 6!

[Guest]

@Gargantua:

You are bound to get Italy STOMPED in the Med, and suffer landings all across western europe. The allies will pour in through the middleeast, and Norway/Finland Karelia.

Round 6 you build infantry and pray.  Before then USA hasn’t had time or money to do much this early in the game, and Italy’s job has been to get infantry into Denmark to protect Berlin.  If you can hold on til then, just think of what you get to spend G7 (this is starting to sound kind of sea lionish).

[Robson]

@Vance:

OK I haven’t tried this out, but here’s what I am thinking.  I know this is way off the wall but hey its different at least….

Germany builds a Major IC in Romania on G1. Attack France with 7 infantry, 2 artillery, and ALL of the planes (I ran an odds calculator on this and you should lose only the infantry and 1 artillery on average, plus maybe 1 fighter to AA).  Attack Yugoslavia using all the mech and armor (no inf/art).  Use the transport to NCM 1 infantry from Norway and an artillery from West Germany over to Poland.  There will be something like 6 artillery, 24 infantry, and a couple AA in Hungary/Poland, and all the mechs and tanks that survive will be in yugo.  The only naval action is z106 and maybe z91.  Activate Finland but leave Bulgaria, South France and later Greece for Italy to mop up.
Japan takes 4 chinese territories, including Chahar. Build nothing to save $26 and keep everyone confused. You also need to take FIC and 1 Soviet territory to have $69 in the bank

Now on round 2 Germany builds 10 mech in Romania and infantry elsewhere.  The whole mob moves into East Poland.  If you are in an aggressive mood, they could also be 10 armor instead.  5 Finns go to Norway to defend it.
Japan takes Suiyuyan.  Build 3 tac, 3 bombers.  Still no attack on allies

Round 3 Germany builds another 10 mechs and moves everybody into North Ukraine, including the new mechs built last turn.  Any spare change goes to infantry in France.  A few German fighters hold down the fort in the West but the Bombers move East.
Japan builds an airbase in Suiyuyan (yes you read that right), and lands ALL of its planes in Suiyuyan.  Yes ALL of them.  Turtle the navy to z6 and build infantry.

Round 4 another batch of mechs in Romania and everybody goes to Bryansk.  Crush anything that’s there.  All fighters go East.
Japan SBR’s Moscow with 5 Bombers and a dozen escort fighters (just to further demoralize the enemy) and lands in Bryansk.

Round 5 This time build bombers in Romania and strafe Moscow until infantry/mechs are exhausted.  USSR can only build a small number of infantry due to 20 SBR damage.  Japan suicides the 20ish planes to kill high value units.

Round 6 Germany exterminates the Bolskevik.  :evil:

I know this sounds crazy, but I did an odds calculation assuming Russia turtles every last unit to Moscow, builds nothing but infantry the whole time, and only loses East Poland, North Ukraine, Bryansk.  Even in that best case scenario they don’t have enough.

Excuse me, but if you take FIC Round 1 with Japan then you don´t get the 10 IPC NO. So you get 59 not 69, or am I wrong?
But hey nice idea, I will try it with the Mayor IC against my opponent  :-D

[Guest]

Ahh good eye Robson.  I guess I would have to skip FIC but take 2 Soviet territories and build 1 more tac and 1 less bomber.  Thanks!

[KillOFzee]

@shohoku201:

@KillOFzee:

@Spendo02:

SZ111:  1 Ftr, 1 Tac, 2 Bomber, 2 SS, 1 BB
SZ110:  2 SS, 3 Ftr, 3 Tac
SZ106: 1 SS

This is optimal. If the British scramble they will most likely lose their planes, and sea lion will be easy. If they don’t, the UK navy will be wiped out, giving you obvious advantage.

Im sorry, i didn’t see that the BB was moved to seazone 111. In my attack plan, i would leave my BB in sz 112 to be built with a carrier so it is protected. Even if i don’t bring the BB, i still have an 80% victory chance if UK scrambles.

By attacking SZ 111 with Germany’s BB and not taking out UK’s DD in SZ 109, doesn’t that mean Germany’s BB will most certainly be destroyed by the DD and RAF on UK1?  Is this optimal?

[barney]

I agree with spendo
like to use the BB to take hits but I like him in 110 because of the potential 3 ftr scramble
the 2 subs in 106 is more about winning battles when you can
although one less sub basically saves you a ftr
and yes you wouldn’t want to convoy raid before sea lion
like to bring the subs back to the fleet in 112
hopefully subs or sub survive 106 and the BB is only damaged making the brit probably kill the BB and dstry dies also
subs can then regroup with fleet