@magnum I’m not yet convinced that letting them pick what they want, and potentially the same thing, is a problem. If anything, this will give them the opportunity to try out different strategies, involving research, and see how they work.
Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1
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@Young:
Here’s my 2 cents……
Research & Development (Version #5)
I originally suggested that nations receive free tech rolls at the beginning of their turn in order to get technology into our games, because optional or not, players just weren’t buying rolls.
My original thought in the house rules forum way back before Delta, was every power receives 1 free roll during the R&D phase (no purchasing), but there are more powers for the allies than the axis, and of course China can’t do squat with most technologies.
In light of this concern I suggest the following:
1. Nations that are without a capital may not make research rolls (free or purchased).
This eliminates China and France from rolling which cuts down the extra amount of dice that the allies receive over the axis, and I would even go so far as taking away all technologies gained if you lose your capital.
The next concern is that some people love their research rolls so much, that getting 1 free roll just ain’t enough. they need multiple free dice and the opportunity to purchase them if they wish. In light of this we created a chart for an amount of free dice per nation based on income, however, that raised the concern that the rich were getting richer and the poor got nothing. Here is my new free roll chart suggestion.
$0-9= 0 roll
$10-39 = 1 roll
$40-80 = 2 rolls
$80+ = 3 rollsMantefan is right, we can’t have people saving money and leaving units off the board for a far fetched hope of secret weapons. It will prevent aggressiveness and put to much attention on R&D, which IMO should be an opening act for the big show, and not some nude streaker trying to steal the show. So, I suggest that……
2. The Research & Development phase is now the last phase in the turn sequence.
1. Facility and Capital Ship Repairs
2. Purchase new units
3. Combat movements
4. Resolve combat
5. Non-combat movements
6. Place new units
7. Collect income
8. Purchase and/or roll free Research & Development dice.You may say “what if we want to base our purchases on, what tech we might get” well I think thats silly and you should wait until the next round, besides after the Americans split the atom, they still needed time to build the bomb and test it.
**3. The income eligible for free R&D dice will be calculated by the amount earned on the income tracking chart, plus the amount earned for NOs (not cash held back from the purchase new units phase).
4. Players may use cash held back from their purchase new units phase, plus money from their collect income phase in order to purchase additional Research dice at $10 each. However, only one technology can be won during each R&D phase regardless of how many 6s are rolled during research.**
Sorry Jen, but I think we should keep the hairy naked streaker off the field.
I have always thought it silly to have scientists working on a whatever, like when you roll and get a technology your nation may be stuck with something they can’t use…… well why were the scientists working on a useless tech to begin with.
5. My suggestion is, we create 10 technologies and number them 1-10 on a chart. If a nation wins a technology, they may choose 6 of the 10 tech choices that they wish to develop. Based on their selection a new 1-6 chart is created (lowest to greatest from the original chart) in which that player will roll a 6 sided die to determine the technology that is won.
I give more power to Jen’s suggestions when making this chart, because it was her chart that originally got voted in Delta. I also liked that she kept true to many of the original tech options and this way we have a few slots to be creative.
OK, I think I’m up to 7 cents now.
Does any one like my idea of choosing 6 tech from a list of 10, and than rolling the development dice?
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i like that idea YG but we’re still working on how rolls are achieved. Gotta go to work
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I think I my have lost some thing in all these pages, can someone explain what all this 4 for 6 or 4-6 dice thing is?
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Mantle’s got the idea.
Basically, if you limit a nation to buying four to six rolls you can increase their odds of getting a technology if they buy dice, while keeping the price pretty high. If we were to say, charge 30 IPC a die, no one would ever buy dice. But if we charge 32 IPC for 4 dice then nations would be more willing to spend the money. We can argue on the price later, I want to establish the system of buying dice and then I can argue what price I want.
Remember, each technology is twice or more than twice as powerful as they are in Alpha +2, because I combined them into just 6 possible technologies - many I boosted above that like war bonds are now best of two dice +2 income. Given that they are more powerful, given that you get free shots at it, I think keeping the price high is very important - the trick is to find a price that nations are willing to spend, but is high enough that if the nation is not in clear control of his territories, would be taking a large risk in paying for.
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I’m not really a fan of all that, my suggestion is to keep things simple, free dice if elegible + your choice of purchasing additional dice for $10 each.
Gotta have your capital
Gotta be at war
Can only gain 1 tech per turn
Pick 6 from from a chart of 10, than roll.That’s the sum of what I will be pushing for.
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I’d go that route if you had to buy 6 dice and picked the technology you wanted. Since on average it takes 6 dice to get one 6.
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@Cmdr:
I’d go that route if you had to buy 6 dice and picked the technology you wanted. Since on average it takes 6 dice to get one 6.
So your 6 dice minimum, is only for purchased dice right? Nothing to do with the free dice scale? I know that I won’t be spending $60 for dice, so sure, they can pick their own tech if they buy 6 dice in 1 turn.
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@Young:
@Cmdr:
I’d go that route if you had to buy 6 dice and picked the technology you wanted. Since on average it takes 6 dice to get one 6.
So your 6 dice minimum, is only for purchased dice right? Nothing to do with the free dice scale? I know that I won’t be spending $60 for dice, so sure, they can pick their own tech if they buy 6 dice in 1 turn.
Yes. Maybe the price should by 8 IPC per die (so you blow 48 IPC and you get your technology.) If you buy dice, this replaces the need to roll your free dice - one can never get two technologies in the same turn - for any reason.
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@mantlefan:
@Cmdr:
@Young:
@Cmdr:
I’d go that route if you had to buy 6 dice and picked the technology you wanted. Since on average it takes 6 dice to get one 6.
So your 6 dice minimum, is only for purchased dice right? Nothing to do with the free dice scale? I know that I won’t be spending $60 for dice, so sure, they can pick their own tech if they buy 6 dice in 1 turn.
Yes. Maybe the price should by 8 IPC per die (so you blow 48 IPC and you get your technology.) If you buy dice, this replaces the need to roll your free dice - one can never get two technologies in the same turn - for any reason.
I’d like to make it clear that just because some dice might be bought and others might be free, in my idea they would all be rolled at once dso there is no risk of getting 2 techs.
It is so worded already, mantlefan. There is no possible way for a nation to get two technologies in the same turn. I’m also proposing an amendment that India’s income is added to England’s for purposes of determining free dice and purchased dice - as per the two nations, one economy rule already established by Larry.
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Yes, the fixed cost is you have to buy 6 dice at 8 IPC and you get the technology of your choice.
Basically, 48 IPC buys you a technology. (We can negotiate the actual price later.) No luck. Or you rely on your “free” dice to find you something. (I envision this as your private citizens and college campuses experimenting on their own time with their own money - which is why it’s free and based on income, which represents your productivity.)
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I agree with everything on this page, let’s not ruin this moment with some crazy tech stealing espionage rule.
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@Young:
I’m not really a fan of all that, my suggestion is to keep things simple, free dice if elegible + your choice of purchasing additional dice for $10 each.
Gotta have your capital
Gotta be at war
Can only gain 1 tech per turn
Pick 6 from from a chart of 10, than roll.That’s the sum of what I will be pushing for.
I also don’t like the 4-6 limit, because it is going to be prohibitive for poorer countries to buy extra research dice. They may only be able to afford 1 die. I agree with mantlefan that we shouldn’t have limits for limits sake. The less we add the better our additions are.
One other factor to consider. I bet we see tech researched after the fall of a capital. Flush with ipcs, Germany is best poised to throw ipcs at tech after the fall of France, UK and Russia which would have a big effect on their tech rolls if going by CoH over territorial income + NOs.
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@Cmdr:
private citizens and college campuses experimenting on their own time with their own money
I can relate to this. I should have been a dentist.
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What we have now is this:
Free Dice for just about every nation up too (and in some cases including) the round they are going to lose their capitol in.
Purchased Technology for 48 IPC (you don’t buy dice, you just buy a technology and find out which one it is when you roll the d6.)Personally, I liked the 8 IPC but you had to buy at least 4 dice and no more than 6 dice. You already get free dice, adding more is a luxury, not a right and these smaller nations don’t have the infrastructure, manpower and/or resources needed to buy dice if they cannot afford more than what they get free - in my mind. It’s like the United States of America gets Nuclear Bombs in 1944, Iran gets them in 2012. Difference? The United States could buy more dice, Iran had to rely on free dice.
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Or we can go this route:
Additional Research Dice Rule - an Amendment to Technology
In addition to any free dice your nation may, or may not, receive to develop technologies nations may purchase more dice at 8 IPC each based on the 4:2 Rule - quoted below:
The 4:2 Tech Rule
-The first time you roll for a particular Tech, you MUST purchase a minimum of 4 rolls that turn
-The second time you roll for that Tech, you MUST purchase a minimum of 2 rolls that turn, but you receive the Tech
automatically
-You MAY purchase ALL 6 rolls in ONE turn, and receive the Tech automatically
-In all cases, Tech doesn’t come into effect until the Mobilize Units Phase you receive it. -
Jen, I appreciate your effort and you have a few good ideas, I will be posting my amended suggestion later.
BTW…. Your meat loaf recipe must be 5 pages long.
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That is the same way I feel about CHina in Korea. Its not complicated, lets not make it so.
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Keep in mind you PICK your technology under the 4:2 rule. No randomness about it.
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It’s very good, thanks for putting it together. It has 90% of my support, I would be in total agreement if the maximum amount of free rolls were 3. (4 or even 5 @6 to bring technology into the game for free is way to many IMO)
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Research and Develop New Technologies Phase
**A nation is permitted to conduct research and develop new weapons provided they are at war and control their own capitols. China and France may never conduct research of develop weapons, under any circumstances.
The order of play is now:**
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Purchase New Units and Technology Dice Rolls
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Make all Combat Move Declarations
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Conduct Combat
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Perform all Non-Combat Movements
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Place New Units
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Determine Amount of Free Dice (by table located below)
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Roll all Free and Purchased Technology Development Dice simultaniously and determine technologies developed
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Collect Income
**Each nation may have free dice, purchased dice or both free and purchased dice given their position on the board and their willingness to purchase dice. Free dice are determined by how much money you collected at the end of your previous turn. Income that counts towards this tally includes: The sum of all territory values you control + the sum of all national objectives you eanred + up to 5 IPC saved from last round.
Free dice are determined by the following chart:**
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$10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll
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$50 - 89 IPC = 2 Rolls
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$90 - 119 IPC = 3 Rolls
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$120 - 149 IPC = 4 Rolls
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$150 - 224 IPC = 5 Rolls
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$225 + IPC = 6 Rolls
**Nations may purchase any number of extra dice at $10 IPC per die, however. A roll of six on a six-sided die represents a successful breakthrough, all failures are lost and there are no “technology tokens.” No nation may develop more than one weapon system per round regardless how many sixes are rolled on the die.
The following represents the new technology list, the previous lists are discarded.**
Research and Development Chart
Your artillery pieces now support up to two attacking infantry. Each infantry paired with the artillery, and the artillery piece hits on a 2 or less in combat.
Mechanized Infantry may now blitz in combat, per armored unit rules, they may also be paired with an artillery to attack at 3 or less.
Your fighters attack at a 4 or less, defend at a 5 or less and intercept bombing raids at a 2 or less.
Your fighters and tactical bombers may now move 6 spaces (7 if paired with an airbase.) Your strategic bombers may now move 8 spaces (9 if paired with an airbase).
Your strategic bombers may now drop up to two regular infantry units (defined as not mechanized infantry) provided the bomber has a legal landing zone after combat is finished. Bombers may not drop infantry in non-combat movements and both the bomber and the infantry units must attack the same territory together.
Your bombers may now fire two dice, each one hits at a 4 or less.
Your industrial complexes are cheaper to build and repair twice as fast. Major complexes now cost 24 IPC and upgrading from a minor complex to a major complex now costs 12 IPC. Standard placement restrictions apply. Each IPC applied to damage on your complexes now repairs two damage markers. This effect does not apply to Airbases and Naval Bases.
_You receive extra income due to sales of warbonds. Roll 2 six sided dice, take the die with the higher number, add two to the value and that is the amount collected in addition to any other source of income you are entitled to receive. _5) Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):
- Improved Warships
** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun. For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
** Submarines now cost 5.
** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.
- Improved Airbases
- Radar Your land based anti-aircraft guns (including both moveable guns as well as guns affixed to facilities) now hit on a 2 or less in opening fire.
- Rockets Each of the airbases your nation controls may fire one rocket at an enemy facility or base within 4 spaces of the airbase that is firing the rocket. Only one rocket per facility or base may be launched.
**Once you have achieved a scientific breakthrough you cannot receive it again. Should you achieve another breakthrough that you already have earned, reroll your success until you achieve a new technology.
Nations that have all six technologies cannot roll more research dice - neither the free dice, nor the purchased dice. ALL TECHNOLOGIES ARE APPLIED AT THE END OF YOUR TURN (emphasis added for those who did not find it before.)**
The following are sanctioned optional rules. These rules are optional, you do not have to incorporate them if you do not want too!
The Research and Development Phase is no longer an optional rule. Instead, players are allowed to choose not to use Research and Development as an official house rule.
Players may also choose to use the optional rule of technology tokens - as per Anniversary rules.
Players may also choose to use the 4:2 rule for purchased dice per the AARe and AA50e rules.__
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