Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

Another major issue with mandating the tech, is little powers will have little chance to get techs, while US and Germany will be getting most of them.  This is going to make playing ANZAC far less fun than Germany, and remember this is a multi-player game not 1v1.

Well, almost anyone should have a chance at free tech, and they can buy tech if they save up for 1 or 2 rounds (to get 4 dice at 8 IPC, ANZAC shouldnt need more than 2 rounds to get enough cash, neither should India - unless they are trying for it in round 1 and I don’t recommend that.)

I agree, USA, Germany and Japan will get the lion’s share of technologies, but then, Japan and Germany really need them to put the final touches on winning the game, America also could use them to kind of drive the game towards an end.

If anything, the free dice should light a fire under England, India, Australia and Russia to increase the pressure.

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

@Young:

The Research & Development Phase is no longer optional, instead……

And of course my post is erased.

To reiterate that which I just typed out and lost:

This is the only part of this rule I don’t like, chiefly because it is going to have a massive effect on balance, and therefore make it hard to check all rules in playtesting for balance.  Adding this variable to the game means now to accurately test something it will take 10x the tries in order to account for various techs won throughout the game.  My main concern is making Delta balanced and mandating this rule means its going to be much harder to locate that balance.

Also I don’t play with tech, am fine with others doing so, and don’t think the game should /force/ players to tech.

Jimmy, be assured that all your concerns will be addressed and treated fairly, you are a very important part of Delta and your opinions matter greatly.

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

Another major issue with mandating the tech, is little powers will have little chance to get techs, while US and Germany will be getting most of them.  This is going to make playing ANZAC far less fun than Germany, and remember this is a multi-player game not 1v1.

Well, almost anyone should have a chance at free tech, and they can buy tech if they save up for 1 or 2 rounds (to get 4 dice at 8 IPC, ANZAC shouldnt need more than 2 rounds to get enough cash, neither should India - unless they are trying for it in round 1 and I don’t recommend that.)

I agree, USA, Germany and Japan will get the lion’s share of technologies, but then, Japan and Germany really need them to put the final touches on winning the game, America also could use them to kind of drive the game towards an end.

If anything, the free dice should light a fire under England, India, Australia and Russia to increase the pressure.

If the minor powers save up money to make research rolls, then they are already losing out on boots on the ground…needed to increase their income.  The only real fix would be to reduce costs to them, or to make all tech rolls cost money but on a sliding scale based on a countries IPC level.  Giving free techs is favoring the larger countries and when its game night everyone is going to want to play those countries.

Remember this is still basically an economics game, All countries should have a ‘fire’ lit under them to increase pressure(ipcs)

But back to my original reason for protesting the mandated tech.  When we are playtesting all rules tech is now going to be a major factor, and this variable is going to make playtesting harder.  Essentially it will take more tests to reach the same conclusion, no?

[special forces]

I agree with JimmyHat, Giving tech to the rich is no fair!

[Guest]

@Zallomallo:

No tech - 6 7 8
Mediocre - 5 9
Good - 4 10
Excellent - 3 11
A-Bomb - 2 12

Yeah, that’s right (sorry I’m not so good at math).  Maybe not the A-Bomb but something most powerful for 2 (e.g. heavy bombers) or 12 (e.g. jet fighters).  I think this idea has a lot of potential because the most powerful techs would be least likely to occur.

[Young Grasshopper]

The refined version of this rule should follow parallel to the ideas that were voted in (some kind of free roll system, and a doubled up tech chart).

[Jennifer]

Free rolls for income:

10 IPC = 1 Roll
30 IPC = 2 Rolls
60 IPC = 3 Rolls
90 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls

Purchased Rolls:

2 Dice = 16 IPC
4 Dice = 32 IPC
6 Dice = 48 IPC

You must purchase either 4 or 6 dice at a time, if 4 dice fail, then you may purchase 2 more the next round.
For each 6 purchased dice, you get one free technology.  You must still roll a D6 to figure out which one you got.

[Jennifer]

There, that should give India, ANZAC and Italy at least 1 die a round so everyone gets something free.  USA will only get 2 until they are at war while Japan should be getting 2 or 3 a round before America comes into the fight.

Germany will also ramp up their technology.  England will get at least one a round.

Should note:  Auto breakthroughs are only true for purchased rolls…

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

Free rolls for income:

10 IPC = 1 Roll
30 IPC = 2 Rolls
60 IPC = 3 Rolls
90 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls

Purchased Rolls:

2 Dice = 16 IPC
4 Dice = 32 IPC
6 Dice = 48 IPC

You must purchase either 4 or 6 dice at a time, if 4 dice fail, then you may purchase 2 more the next round.
For each 6 purchased dice, you get one free technology.  You must still roll a D6 to figure out which one you got.

Your almost there Jen, but 3 free rolls for carrying only $60 is way to much IMO. How about 1 for $10, 2 for $50, 3 for $100, and 4 for $150. This seems much more reasonable to me.

[Jennifer]

AMENDED:
Free rolls for income:

10 IPC = 1 Roll
50 IPC = 2 Rolls
90 IPC = 3 Rolls
120 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls
225 IPC = 6 Rolls

Purchased Rolls:

2 Dice = 16 IPC
4 Dice = 32 IPC
6 Dice = 48 IPC

You must purchase either 4 or 6 dice at a time, if 4 dice fail, then you may purchase 2 more the next round.
For each 6 purchased dice, you get one free technology.  You must still roll a D6 to figure out which one you got.

[Jennifer]

Now, if America is pretty involved in the world, it will be getting 3 rolls a turn free but it has to be really involved.

Japan should be getting 2 rolls still, as should Germany.

Just about anyone who isn’t reduced to rubble should be getting at least 1 freebie.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

AMENDED:
Free rolls for income:

10 IPC = 1 Roll
50 IPC = 2 Rolls
90 IPC = 3 Rolls
120 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls
225 IPC = 6 Rolls

Purchased Rolls:

2 Dice = 16 IPC
4 Dice = 32 IPC
6 Dice = 48 IPC

You must purchase either 4 or 6 dice at a time, if 4 dice fail, then you may purchase 2 more the next round.
For each 6 purchased dice, you get one free technology.  You must still roll a D6 to figure out which one you got.

I agree with this research system 100%.

[Young Grasshopper]

I would still like the chart to reflect more balance between land/air/sea units, because I feel like there should be one more naval advancement in exchange for something else.

[Jennifer]

Did you miss my changes to Super Submarines?

Submarines:  Attack 2, Defend 1, Move 3
Aircraft Carriers: Attack 0, Defend 2, Move 3
Battleships: Attack 4, Defend 5, Move 2
Destroyers: Attack 2, Defend 2, Move 3, Shore Bombard 2

[JimmyHat]

@Young:

The refined version of this rule should follow parallel to the ideas that were voted in (some kind of free roll system, and a doubled up tech chart).

Why? that is what this discussion is for.

I voted for this!  And you’ll notice I am not for it being mandated.  All aspects need to be discussed because we do not know the motivations for alll the people who voted.  I voted for this because I want to help with technical advice and see a better R&D system put in place, not because I want techs to be mandated.

Otherwise obviously I want to revoke my vote.  However I don’t think we should only be voting for rules we intend to play with, I also rarely SBR but plan to be a part of that discussion too.

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

Did you miss my changes to Super Submarines?

Submarines:  Attack 2, Defend 1, Move 3
Aircraft Carriers: Attack 0, Defend 2, Move 3
Battleships: Attack 4, Defend 5, Move 2
Destroyers: Attack 2, Defend 2, Move 3, Shore Bombard 2

Subs move 3??? How?  Are these Vaseline coated subs? if you want a fast naval unit go with crusiers, they are designed to go fast.  Subs have friction with the entire ocean….they don’t go fast.

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

@Young:

The refined version of this rule should follow parallel to the ideas that were voted in (some kind of free roll system, and a doubled up tech chart).

Why? that is what this discussion is for.

I voted for this!  And you’ll notice I am not for it being mandated.  All aspects need to be discussed because we do not know the motivations for alll the people who voted.  I voted for this because I want to help with technical advice and see a better R&D system put in place, not because I want techs to be mandated.

Otherwise obviously I want to revoke my vote.  However I don’t think we should only be voting for rules we intend to play with, I also rarely SBR but plan to be a part of that discussion too.

I voted for it to, and if the free roll system is out than so is my vote, which would put it even with “none of the above”. The final version must be recognizable to the original idea, or its just a different idea altogether. why even vote for suggestions if the discussion thread is going to manipulate it into something totally different.

If you show me a picture of Joan Rivers from 30 years ago, I might agree to go on a date with her, but if you make her look like she does now with tons of changes before the dinner, than it won’t be who I agreed to date in the first place. If I voted for Obama and Sean Penn showed up at swearing in, claiming to be Obama…. I would want my vote back.

The original rule said free dice rolls for research if you have a certain amount of cash, what’s wrong with the discussion moving in that direction? (parallel). If the issue is to allow R&D to remain an optional rule, than I’m OK with that, but I happen to like my free roll idea.

[JimmyHat]

Its not the free dice rolls that gets to me, I am merely pointing out problems with it.  The real issue I have is mandating the tech.  It should not be forced on people, not everyone plays with tech to begin with.  The second reason to not mandate tech is it is going to make playtesting this and all other following rules much harder because we are adding in such a large variable.

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

Its not the free dice rolls that gets to me, I am merely pointing out problems with it.  The real issue I have is mandating the tech.  It should not be forced on people, not everyone plays with tech to begin with.  The second reason to not mandate tech is it is going to make playtesting this and all other following rules much harder because we are adding in such a large variable.

If its a matter of keeping it an optional rule, than I have no problem with that.

Cheers.

[Jennifer]

Well, not sure if it has changed, but Tech has always been a core rule, just many people choose not to play with technology.  That should still be true for Delta Rules…it’s a core rule, but players can choose not to play with it.

Submarines move 3 was a game mechanic necessitated by destroyers move 3.  I want the Submarines to have a chance to escape.  Heck, it’s a technology thing, maybe they figured out how to harness the atom bomb, but only for engine speed?