Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

[Jennifer]

Did you miss my changes to Super Submarines?

Submarines:  Attack 2, Defend 1, Move 3
Aircraft Carriers: Attack 0, Defend 2, Move 3
Battleships: Attack 4, Defend 5, Move 2
Destroyers: Attack 2, Defend 2, Move 3, Shore Bombard 2

[JimmyHat]

@Young:

The refined version of this rule should follow parallel to the ideas that were voted in (some kind of free roll system, and a doubled up tech chart).

Why? that is what this discussion is for.

I voted for this!  And you’ll notice I am not for it being mandated.  All aspects need to be discussed because we do not know the motivations for alll the people who voted.  I voted for this because I want to help with technical advice and see a better R&D system put in place, not because I want techs to be mandated.

Otherwise obviously I want to revoke my vote.  However I don’t think we should only be voting for rules we intend to play with, I also rarely SBR but plan to be a part of that discussion too.

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

Did you miss my changes to Super Submarines?

Submarines:  Attack 2, Defend 1, Move 3
Aircraft Carriers: Attack 0, Defend 2, Move 3
Battleships: Attack 4, Defend 5, Move 2
Destroyers: Attack 2, Defend 2, Move 3, Shore Bombard 2

Subs move 3??? How?  Are these Vaseline coated subs? if you want a fast naval unit go with crusiers, they are designed to go fast.  Subs have friction with the entire ocean….they don’t go fast.

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

@Young:

The refined version of this rule should follow parallel to the ideas that were voted in (some kind of free roll system, and a doubled up tech chart).

Why? that is what this discussion is for.

I voted for this!  And you’ll notice I am not for it being mandated.  All aspects need to be discussed because we do not know the motivations for alll the people who voted.  I voted for this because I want to help with technical advice and see a better R&D system put in place, not because I want techs to be mandated.

Otherwise obviously I want to revoke my vote.  However I don’t think we should only be voting for rules we intend to play with, I also rarely SBR but plan to be a part of that discussion too.

I voted for it to, and if the free roll system is out than so is my vote, which would put it even with “none of the above”. The final version must be recognizable to the original idea, or its just a different idea altogether. why even vote for suggestions if the discussion thread is going to manipulate it into something totally different.

If you show me a picture of Joan Rivers from 30 years ago, I might agree to go on a date with her, but if you make her look like she does now with tons of changes before the dinner, than it won’t be who I agreed to date in the first place. If I voted for Obama and Sean Penn showed up at swearing in, claiming to be Obama…. I would want my vote back.

The original rule said free dice rolls for research if you have a certain amount of cash, what’s wrong with the discussion moving in that direction? (parallel). If the issue is to allow R&D to remain an optional rule, than I’m OK with that, but I happen to like my free roll idea.

[JimmyHat]

Its not the free dice rolls that gets to me, I am merely pointing out problems with it.  The real issue I have is mandating the tech.  It should not be forced on people, not everyone plays with tech to begin with.  The second reason to not mandate tech is it is going to make playtesting this and all other following rules much harder because we are adding in such a large variable.

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

Its not the free dice rolls that gets to me, I am merely pointing out problems with it.  The real issue I have is mandating the tech.  It should not be forced on people, not everyone plays with tech to begin with.  The second reason to not mandate tech is it is going to make playtesting this and all other following rules much harder because we are adding in such a large variable.

If its a matter of keeping it an optional rule, than I have no problem with that.

Cheers.

[Jennifer]

Well, not sure if it has changed, but Tech has always been a core rule, just many people choose not to play with technology.  That should still be true for Delta Rules…it’s a core rule, but players can choose not to play with it.

Submarines move 3 was a game mechanic necessitated by destroyers move 3.  I want the Submarines to have a chance to escape.  Heck, it’s a technology thing, maybe they figured out how to harness the atom bomb, but only for engine speed?

[salan]

In our house rules we have Research Facilities… these work like Industrial Facilities in that they can be bombed by enemy forces.  They have 4 / 8 health, each currently functioning research facility rolls 1 die on ‘research development’ phase.  can have 1 per territory, are destroyed when conquered (conquering nation can loot a technology on a roll of 6 when destroying (looting) the facility).

Facilities cost 15 IPC to purchase in our games.

we found this works awesome, as it represents a repeatable die roll, with strategic and tactical placement and objectives of having a building that needs to be defended and attacked, while still maintaining the same ON BOARD style that every other aspect of the game features.

[Young Grasshopper]

@salan:

In our house rules we have Research Facilities… these work like Industrial Facilities in that they can be bombed by enemy forces.  They have 4 / 8 health, each currently functioning research facility rolls 1 die on ‘research development’ phase.  can have 1 per territory, are destroyed when conquered (conquering nation can loot a technology on a roll of 6 when destroying (looting) the facility).

Facilities cost 15 IPC to purchase in our games.

we found this works awesome, as it represents a repeatable die roll, with strategic and tactical placement and objectives of having a building that needs to be defended and attacked, while still maintaining the same ON BOARD style that every other aspect of the game features.

This is good, what should we do with it?

[Jennifer]

Questions: (my suggestions in red)
1)  Would this stack with “free” dice?
Yes.
2)  Can it be captured then?  Like an Airbase or Naval Base?
Yes.
3)  Can it be bombed?
Yes. It is repaired like any other facility.  If it sustains any damage that is not repaired, the facility is non-functional for the round.
3a)  If it is bombed, how much damage negates it?
1 IPC Damage shuts down the facility, unless it is repaired.  The facility can sustain 6 damage total.
3b)  Is it destroyed, or damaged?
The facility is not destroyed, it is damaged.
4)  Can it be moved?
No.
4a)  What is its movement?
4b)  Can it load a transport?
4bi)  Does it take the infantryman’s place?
4bii)  Does it take the artillery, mechanized infantry, armor or AA Gun’s place?

Research facilities cannot be built on your own territories (this is so they can be captured!), and can only be built on territory with some “value” (ie 1 IPC or more) up to the value of the territory.  (Example:  Malaya can have 3 facilities, but no more than that.  E. Persia cannot have a facility, it is not worth any money.  Russia cannot build a facility on Caucasus, it is their own territory, but they can build 4 on Germany.)

Looking back, you say it can be captured under certain conditions…

[Young Grasshopper]

Jen, are we to forfeit our original idea, in favor for the possibility of something better? Thats the only way I see changing our winning suggestion fairly, in favor of this facility idea.

[Jennifer]

I didn’t say I liked the Facility idea, I only pointed at the number of issues with it that should be addressed and offered my solutions to each issue.

I prefer the original idea:

Free based on income
You can buy more, but have to do so in lots of 4 or 6 dice.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

I didn’t say I liked the Facility idea, I only pointed at the number of issues with it that should be addressed and offered my solutions to each issue.

I prefer the original idea:

Free based on income
You can buy more, but have to do so in lots of 4 or 6 dice.

OK, we will stay on track.

[Guest]

So correct me if I’m wrong……

Original:
$0-24= 0 Rolls
$25-74= 1 Roll
$75-99= 2 Rolls
$100+= 3 Rolls

Amended:
10 IPC = 1 Roll
50 IPC = 2 Rolls
90 IPC = 3 Rolls
120 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls
225 IPC = 6 Rolls

…but isn’t the amended version going to lead to an awful lot of technology development?  At this rate smaller nations like ANZAC and Italy will each have a tech by round 6 and perhaps 2 by round 12 (on average).  Larger nations can expect to have 2 by round 6 and maybe 4 or more by round 12!  I like the original schedule better than the amended one, which would make the game too volatile and hard to follow.  The game has to be playable.

Playing with tech should be optional.

[Jennifer]

IT should be, but it’s never been listed as an optional rule before.  Most places house rule that the games have no technology developments, but it’s never been segregated as an optional rule, at least that I can remember.

Yes, by round 12 everyone should have a technology or two.  The idea is that your units get better at killing each other as the game progresses.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Vance:

So correct me if I’m wrong……

Original:
$0-24= 0 Rolls
$25-74= 1 Roll
$75-99= 2 Rolls
$100+= 3 Rolls

Amended:
10 IPC = 1 Roll
50 IPC = 2 Rolls
90 IPC = 3 Rolls
120 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls
225 IPC = 6 Rolls

…but isn’t the amended version going to lead to an awful lot of technology development?  At this rate smaller nations like ANZAC and Italy will each have a tech by round 6 and perhaps 2 by round 12 (on average).  Larger nations can expect to have 2 by round 6 and maybe 4 or more by round 12!  I like the original schedule better than the amended one, which would make the game too volatile and hard to follow.  The game has to be playable.

Playing with tech should be optional.

We have discussed it earlier and I think we agreed to keep R&D an optional rule, or change it to an optional rule (whichever).

I was reluctant, but compromised, I really would like to see increments of 50 like I suggested in a previous post. I don’t think that there should be more freebies after, 4 for $150. I guess I’m just anxious to get a rule finalized.

[Guest]

Wouldn’t lowering the income necessary to get 2 rolls from 75 to 50 be rather “inflationary” for tech, given that most countries never make $75 but most can manage $50?

[Guest]

By round 3, USA will have had 6 dice rolls and will already have 1 tech (on average) before they even enter the war for doing absolutely nothing.  How about if nations not yet at war do not get the free dice rolls?

[Robbernosky]

@Vance:

So correct me if I’m wrong……

Original:
$0-24= 0 Rolls
$25-74= 1 Roll
$75-99= 2 Rolls
$100+= 3 Rolls

Amended:
10 IPC = 1 Roll
50 IPC = 2 Rolls
90 IPC = 3 Rolls
120 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls
225 IPC = 6 Rolls

…but isn’t the amended version going to lead to an awful lot of technology development?  At this rate smaller nations like ANZAC and Italy will each have a tech by round 6 and perhaps 2 by round 12 (on average).  Larger nations can expect to have 2 by round 6 and maybe 4 or more by round 12!  I like the original schedule better than the amended one, which would make the game too volatile and hard to follow.  The game has to be playable.

Playing with tech should be optional.

I still support the double dice thing, so we can have more, not as good techs.  That way, 4 techs wouldn’t be incredible.

[Young Grasshopper]

Version #2

Research and Development is an optional rule that must be agreed upon before play begins. If it is agreed that R&D is playable, the following rules will be recognized.

1. Each power will be eligible to roll 1 or more free research dice depending on the amount of cash they hold at the beginning of their turn.

$10 - $49 = 1 roll
$50 - $99 = 2 rolls
$100 - $149 = 3 rolls
$150 or more = 4 rolls

2. Each power may also purchase unlimited dice rolls for $10 each, in addition to any free rolls they receive. Regardless of weather or not rolls fail or succeed, research dice do not carry over from one turn to another, and may not be saved from one turn to another. All dice (free and purchased) must be rolled together.

3. For each research dice that rolls a 6, a technology may be developed, by rolling a development dice.

4. Neutral powers may not receive free dice for research, nor purchase dice for research, until they have entered the war. (if the US declares war at the end of turn 3, they must wait until the research and development phase of turn 4, to roll research dice)

The Development Chart

1. Improved Training and Technology (Combine the following):

• Light Artillery (each can be pulled by a tank or a mech infantry)
• Improved Mechanized Infantry (attack at 2, move 2 can be paired iwth artillery to attack at 3)

2. Improved Aeronautics (Combine the following):

• Jet Fighters (attack 4, defend 5)
• Long Range Aircraft (fighters/tacticals move 5 or 6 from a base / strategics move 7 or 8 from a base)

3. Improved Bomber Technology (Combine the following):

• Paratroopers (2 infantry)
• Heavy Bombers (attack with 2@6)

4. Improved Factories (Combine the following):

• Improved Industrial Complexes (Minors Cost 12, build 5; Majors cost 24, build 12)
• War Bonds (roll 2d6, take best result +2)

5. Improved Nautical advancements  (Combine the following):

• Armor hulls (Battleships must endure 3 hits before sinking)
• Super Submarines

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar (AA Guns fire at 2 or less)
• Rockets (each airbases fires one rocket per SBR rules with a range of 4, may not be intercepted.)

My changes to Jen’s original chart are marked in red