Four battleship counter

[pawn2power9786]

Wouldn’t taking part of China (including Yunnan) help fuel me for taking down India & ANZAC?

[Alsch91]

Well to point out something that conflicts with what Jen said -

If you’re trying to win in Pacific, you’re going to need to at least keep your boot on China’s throat - you need Hong Kong and Shanghai.  If you’re not at least keeping China busy, you’re not going to have them for long.

[Jennifer]

Yes, but who wins in the Pacific?  America should be annhilating you long before you can win, your job is to slow America down.

However, if you are going to win in the Pacific, migthn still be better to get Calcutta and Sydney first.

As for China, unless you are getting good dice, it’s going to cost you a lot more than you get for taking it.  I like zooming around Russia and making China a two front war, if I need to take out China.  Forces them to split and allowing you to stack your planes for max efficiency.

[Alsch91]

Well if we’re talking about Axis winning in the Pacific, we’re operating under the assumption that America isn’t going 100% Pacific.
We’re not all assuming that America goes the KJF route, Jen.  :lol:

I could see the logic behind grabbing Calcutta and Sydney before re-taking the Chinese VCs, though.  It just might be harder than devoting the roughly 2 Infantry plus plane assests required to keep China busy.
Going around China through Russia seems interesting, though.  I’ve never tried that.
I’d think that if Japan is in the Novosibirsk region, they’d be focusing more on Russia than China.  But it’s certainly interesting.

[knp7765]

One thing about battleships is they are more valuable for defending your own coast than going out to attack an enemy fleet.  Make his four shiny battleships come after you while your fleet is in home waters.  That way, if his battleships take that first hit and survive the naval battle, then they are a long way from friendly naval bases and can’t get repaired right away.  Now they are ONE-hit battleships.  Have a back-up force of planes waiting to pounce on your turn and his battleships will be toast.
What’s even better, if they attacked your fleet and had to retreat, now they are just 1 sz away and in a damaged state.  Meanwhile YOUR capital ships get repaired right away and are ready to go at full strength.  Time to smash some battleships.  Then it’s like Gargantua said, he won’t be replacing those anytime soon, certainly not all four of them.

[Jennifer]

Let us assume America goes 30/70 split (ie, goes after Germany with only enough invested to allow Japan to walk all over the Pacific).

I still say go Calcutta and Sydney first for the following reasons:
1)  They are capitols. (Most important reason.)
2)  They are both national objectives.
3)  They are both victory cities.
4)  They both prevent the enemy from rebuilding

You should be able to take Calcutta on round 4 if you are dedicated (but not stuck with tunnel-vision) with tunnel-vision you could do it on round 3.  Australia should fall no later than two rounds after that.  Even if America is heavily invested, you should be able to get both of these before the Americans knock you back, IMHO.

China has no capitol, so you can never stop them entirely, unless you take every scrap of land they have, and that’s usually taking me 6 or 7 rounds at the earliest.  So, for me, it is 6 or 7 rounds to get India and Australia or 6 to 7 rounds to get China.

Worse, if I take China first, it’s darn near impossible to get India, they’ve just had too long to build up.  I feel it is akin to trying Sea Lion on round 12 or 13.  Can be done, but man is it going to take a lot of effort!

[Gargantua]

Taking Yunnan Neuter’s China Early.  No other target - save the fighter, matters in China.

Dont listen to any of these “Abandon China” theories, or you’ll pay heavily for it.

[Jennifer]

I am not abandoning it, I am taking a few rounds to take out India and Australia first, then I can pummel the Chinese to my heart’s content, or go for San Francisco.

[Gargantua]

Jennifer,

Please DIRECTLY answer these 3 questions, for all our benefit, followed perhaps by 1 SHORT explanation paragraph.

1. What turn do you attack the allies with Japan?

2. What Turn does Calcutta fall to you?

3. What turn does NSW fall to you?

4. and IF the Americans have committed NOTHING to the pacific, save defense, what turn does that put japanese forces back in China?  If Ever?

[Ruanek]

Taking Yunnan certainly makes life difficult for China (no artillery or bonus NO income), but it’s hard to hold it with what Japan’s got round 1.  And if China can retake it then all the Japanese effort did was to destroy a few Chinese infantry and prevent them from buying artillery for one turn.  This means that Japan has to invest a bit in China to actually keep Yunnan.  It’s a slippery slope.  I think it’s definitely a good goal to take and hold Yunnan, but is it worth the cost compared to being able to spend those IPCs on taking out ANZAC or India earlier?

[Jennifer]

@Gargantua:

Jennifer,

Please DIRECTLY answer these 3 questions, for all our benefit, followed perhaps by 1 SHORT explanation paragraph.

1. What turn do you attack the allies with Japan?

2. What Turn does Calcutta fall to you?

3. What turn does NSW fall to you?

4. and IF the Americans have committed NOTHING to the pacific, save defense, what turn does that put japanese forces back in China?  If Ever?

Japan 1:
Buy(26)

• 3 Transports, Save 5

Attack various Chinese territories
NCM units to KWA including fleet

Collect 29 TT + 5 Saved + 10 NO = 44 IPC

Japan 2:
Buy(44)

• 2 Transports
• Naval Base
• 5 Infantry

Move transports, Infantry, planes down to Hainan/Kwa
Attack various Chinese territories

Build naval base in Hainan
Build infantry in Japan (in case America is getting uppity)

If American equipment is in range of SZ 6, scratch transports and build more ground units.

Japan 3:

Attack Philippines, Attack India with 6 loaded transports, 12 planes and use fleet to sink SZ 39.

Best England can have: 23 ground units, 3 planes

In that case, move transports and equipment down and put fleet next to India to prevent blocking (sea zone adjacent to SZ 39)

Japan 4:
Attack India with 8 transports, 20 planes

End of J4 (either way) India is Japans.  From there put ICs in FIC, W. India and Malaya to assist in crushing Australia.  No big if America dumps ships in SZ 6, just keep Japan stacked to prevent it from falling.

NSW should fall two or three rounds later to Japanese forces.  Even if we assume I lost 6 of 20 planes in India and all but one of the ground units attacking, I should have enough replacements to overwhelm the Australians.

Say Turn 4 (latest for India) + 3 rounds (longest after) for a total of 7 rounds.  China is mostly ignored here except a round 1 attack on Yunnan and perhaps replacement attacks if it is not heavily stacked.  Other attacks are “walk in onlys” to preseve units to put on transports. (I need 16 ground units)

This is an adaption of the Kill America First strategy in so much it relies heavily on transports.  The naval base in Hainan is only if England does not block, if they do, just jump in closer and stack Burma/Sham State/Stay on Transports so you can attack on J4. (Gives you more transports since you dont need 15 IPC for the naval base.)

If America virutally ignores the Pacific, I am still putting forces back into China after India falls. (Due to lack of transports being needed, I can use complexes in india, w. india, malaya, fic, etc or any part there of to add forces to use in China.)  If America does go Pacific, I want to build up fleets to take them on.  With DEI, 5of7, India and NSW I should have enough cash to do this.

Not saying this is an “I win” button, just really powerful if you can pull it off.

[Gargantua]

So more or less, you are advocating ignoring china for 9 turns.

W O W !

[Jennifer]

@Gargantua:

So more or less, you are advocating ignoring china for 9 turns.

W O W !

No.  For 3 rounds assuming J4 invasion of India.  (Round 1 you attack China, after India falls, you attack China since you don’t need to dedicate 100% to Australia.)

[Gargantua]

So right now you’re saying…

No.  For 3 rounds assuming J4 invasion of India.  (Round 1 you attack China, after India falls, you attack China since you don’t need to dedicate 100% to Australia.)

Ok….

But what happend to this brainwave of yours from less than 24 hours ago?

Commander Jennifer: Ignore China, get India and Australia.  You can reclaim a coastal here ro there or just plain out right forget them entirely.

Any explanations?

Tell me please,  is your strategy to attack? or to “forget them entirely”?

And please tell me, what is the best Chinese  territory to attack/most important to hold?

[Jennifer]

A)  If you are not going to completely ignore China and help Germany win, then you have to invade and attack them sometime (ignoring them for 3 rounds won’t be too detrimental.)

B)  If you are going to to help Germany win, you don’t need China so you may as well ignore them to save money and time.

It’s a totally different mission.  If you are going to win with Japan, you have to smack China around for the VC’s in Hong Kong and Beijing.  If you are going to sap Russia and allow Germany to win, then why blow hundreds of IPC in China?

[Gargantua]

How do you blow “Hundreds” of IPC’s in china?  Hundreds implies more than 100 thus atleast two hundreds (200).

That’s 20 planes “Wasted”…  Explain more please? I don’t get it?

[Ruanek]

@Gargantua:

How do you blow “Hundreds” of IPC’s in china?  Hundreds implies more than 100 thus atleast two hundreds (200).

That’s 20 planes “Wasted”…   Explain more please? I don’t get it?

You’re making an interesting assumption there.  I think it’s really hyperbole.  Destroying 18 infantry and an AA gun isn’t that easy, especially if they pulled back to prevent bombardment and such.  It’s a large commitment in terms of turns, IPCs and the fact that it forces Japan to spend less, if not nothing at all, in other richer areas.  And the USA can make it a pain for Japan, especially if it isn’t going for the money farther South.  That has to be dealt with, too.  But really, Cmdr Jennifer makes sense.  If Japan is focusing on helping Germany win (not going South for the money, NOs, or VCs), there’s no reason to commit large forces to subdue China when it’s so limited in what it can do.  Sure, they may push Japan out of China entirely, but at that point it won’t matter, because Japan is fully committed elsewhere.

And if it helped to take out Russia and bring a German victory, it’s not money wasted.

I personally prefer for each Axis power to try to win in their respective area, rather than forgoing improving their own economy just to help out someone on the other side of the world.  In my opinion it makes for a more interesting and fun game.  But maybe that’s just me.

[Jennifer]

You start with 24 infantry, 6 artillery and 1 mechanized infantry on the mainland.  That’s 55 right there, and yes, they will probably all be lost in China one way or another (killed or stuck out of position to be used elsewhere.)

On top of that, I advocate +18 more mech and + 12 more armor for another 144 IPC worth of material being shoved into China via Russia (Timguska) bringing the total to 199 IPC.

Add just one plane (and you will probably need more than one) and you easily break 200 IPC worth of units in China or destroyed.

There is also replacements that you will probably need that I did not detail as well.

[MacNaughton]

I think it is obvious that you are both right on different points. You cannot ignore China entirely, but there’s no point in making it the overwhelming object of Japan’s strategy. If you ignore it entirely, it will buy art and push Japan off the coast taking around 10 or 12 IPCs and two victory cities (1/3 of Japan’s victory requirement). If you make it your chief aim, you will waste a lot of time that Japan can’t afford to lose what with Calcutta building up defenses, ANZAC putting together a navy or air force or something, and USA bringing an economic hammer to bear. And that time will indeed be a waste as there are no victory conditions in China.

The good news for Japan is that China can be severely crippled from the first turn simply by taking Yunnan and a few other territories in the North. From that point on, if Yunnan is held, China can barely do a thing of importance in the whole game. And it only requires a couple infantry a turn and a few support planes for Japan to keep China under the boot.

[Alsch91]

@Cmdr:

On top of that, I advocate +18 more mech and + 12 more armor for another 144 IPC worth of material being shoved into China via Russia (Timguska) bringing the total to 199 IPC.

Um….
don’t do that then.

Hooray!  We’ve saved 144 IPCs!

Plus that much land force is waaayy more than what is needed.