Russia is too strong in Alpha 2+

[Gargantua]

Play a game of Europe only, with absolutely NO American units or interference…

see how different it plays out.  And how quickly - if possible, you can win as Germany.

If you lose, there is a BIG problem.

One of the problems I also have, is with all the ships in the med… Italy can’t seem to get anything started, if the UK is sent on playing the denial/slow game.

[Jennifer]

But there IS America and it IS a consideration.

In any game in which you are not testing a Pac Strat you will always be concerned if America decides, suddenly, to drop 100 IPC in the Atlantic.

[Gargantua]

Ya and then it’s not a 100% pacific Strategy Jen.  Which is my point.

America is REQUIRED to build in the atlantic, or they will lose.  You force them to do it, by playing as if they were never there.  Voila.  Problem solved.

[Jennifer]

No.  Just because you have to plan for the contingency that America MIGHT build in the Atlantic does not mean America ever will build in the Atlantic, only that you have to keep units in reserve to deal with it.

[Chompers2]

@Gargantua:

Ya and then it’s not a 100% pacific Strategy Jen.  Which is my point.

America is REQUIRED to build in the atlantic, or they will lose.  You force them to do it, by playing as if they were never there.  Voila.  Problem solved.

I still think Germany performing a True Neutral crush would be a pretty sweet Strategy to make the Allies pay for having USA spend all their points in the Pacfic…

[KillOFzee]

I’ve always like building a Major IC in Romania, because it allows me to grab the more valuable territories in the south. If the Germans just go full steam ahead into Novgorod, they won’t be accumulating a lot of IPCs every turn. I used to build a Major in Romania but now i feel that a Minor is a lot more efficient…by G2 you could have 8 infantry, 6 tanks, and a combo of aircraft to hit southern Russia, which is usually better than anything the Russians can come up with, unless they abandon the North. That’s why a 2 pronged attack is the best…it forces the Russians to split their forces, which they are not economically capable of doing, whereas the Germans are.

[Commando Brado]

I totally agree KillOFreeze! Except I still like the major IC in Romania!  :-D

[thatonekid]

russia is really not to strong. i played against a player with far more skill than i had, and i still ended up taking moscow. the key is to not worry about the other 2 VC’s in russia, bcuz they will eventually fall after the fall of its capital

[Commando Brado]

Russia is too strong. Or, the Axis are too weak. Against a skilled Allied player, IMHO, the Axis lose every time. I’ve played about a dozen games so far and this happens every time. I’ve only played the Allies so far but I’m currently playing the Axis against a skilled Allied player so we’ll see. Granted some of the Axis players weren’t the best that I’ve played against but from what I can tell on the forums, most people believe the Axis are too weak or the Allies are too strong. It may not be that Russia needs to be weakened to make the game balanced but the Axis need a little more “umph!” and/or the Allies need to weakened a bit.

[Jennifer]

No, Russia is not too strong, AMERICA is too strong!

That’s where the problem lies.  America should have to invest on both sides of the board or lose significant resources for failing to do so.  If that happenes, then Russia would be crushed easier since Japan would have more resources to attack them with.

[Xandax]

Not being able to kill off a nation “fast enough” if it does almost nothing but turtle does not make that nation too strong. Making it easier to take Russia makes it easier to take the European side of the board, making the game shorter and removing strategy from the game.
Instead of treating the symptom (loose before taking Russia), treat the cause (too easy for the USA to swing in with a combined Pac/EU side resources).

As I see it, pretty much the only thing that can be done is tweaking the USA, as it is the factor which tips the board when combining Pac and the EU.
Putting all your units in Moscow to defend is not a winning strategy, it’s just an avoidance of loosing because the US will come to save you strategy. You can’t take Russia because the US can be a factor too fast, not because Russia is too strong. Tweaking Russia or Germany will not do the game good IMO, on the contrary. A stronger Italy might be useful, but IMO that’s also a short sighted change.

[Strikers]

Jennifer is very, very right! Russia is not too strong! Just because you cant take Moscow in a couple turns like you could in the previous version does not mean its too strong. Germany will eventually take Moscow if no other power comes to its rescue. The key is dispatching Russia before the Allies defeat Japan or gain enough strength to make a invasion in western  Europe.
For all of you having difficulty dealing with Russia
As  Germany build a lot of infantry and artillery for the first 4-6 rounds. As Jennifer said you can use the Italians to place your air craft on the front. Use this to push your way into Russia. Turn 5 or 6 or later buy mechs and tanks to catch up to the front in time for the assault on Moscow.  Feint Sea-lion and use those transports to make a two pronged attack.  The larger force should go to the South and pretty much all of the mechs and tanks should go south. The main idea is to cut the Soviet supply of cash.  Attempt to disable their buying power early. Use the transports and a small land based army coming from the south to take Novogrod early. Then use this factory to create are fair sized northern army. It will then push towards Moscow. The main purpose of this army is to keep Soviet troops pinned down protecting Moscow while your other army takes all of the IPC territory in the south. Position your aircraft so that it can support and protect both armies if the need arises.

PS The U.S. is too strong unless it splits its income between the two theaters.

[Jennifer]

Please note that what Strikers said about beating Russia before the Allies can swing around and spank you was the same for other games!  Except it was beating Germany before Japan could swing around and spank you.  Did that make Japan too strong?  No.  It made the allies work to stop Germany faster.  Same is true now.  Stop Russia faster!

[JeffM]

@jim010:

The US is fine. I disagree with everyone that says US is too strong. They can focus on Japan and neutralize them or remove them from the game and then swing back by turn 8 - 10. I agree with that, but not with forcing them to split their buys - wouldn’t work anyway.

But … Russia IS too strong. They need to start with less units, or make less money.

So far Russia played properly can hold its own WITHOUT help. That should not be the case. Even going hard on Russia from both sides and I haven’t been able to crack it.

Russia needs to be reduced.

I have read your post on the Harris Game Designs website as well as all of the responses here on Axisandallies.org, and I still agree with you that Russia is too strong.

I am in an Axis and Allies group that has played several games of Global and we have yet to crack the Russian defense… The Russian turtling strategy is very hard to overcome with the current setup, and I don’t thing that it matters if the Germans attack north or south, the Russians can always fall back to the middle ground and protect Moscow.

I have looked at the game loggs that you posted, and they are right on with how some of our games have gone.  Here are my observations based on the games that we have played.  I will state beforehand that in all of these games, the German player used the standard G1 buy of a Carrier and 2 transports, or a Carrier, a destroyer, and a transport.

1. Game 1 – German player did the standard G1 buy, then on G2 bought a Major Factory in Romania  and bought Infantry/ Art on G3 and tanks in W Germany.  The German player launched an attack on G3 into Russia… the stack moved forward and the German player reached Moscow on G7, bud did not have the forces to knock out the Russians… the Americans and British eventually defeated the Germans on the Western Front

2. Game 2 – The German player did the standard buy on G1, but built heavily in transports on G2 (and did not buy a factory in Romania).  He used the transports to launch an invasion of Leningrad on G3, and built mostly inf and tanks there after in Germany.  In this game, the German superior fleet was able to hold off the British invasion for a longer period of time, but the investment in fleet seemed to doom the Germans as they where not able to defeat the Russian Stack that turtled back to Russia.

3. Game 3 – This was the closest game… the Germans did a standard G1 buy, but built all art units on g2, mech inf/ art on g3, mech on g4, and tanks on G5/G6.  While the faster units help, you can still only get to Moscow so quick if the Russians are falling back and only leaving one unit per turn.  In this particular game, the US went all in on the Pacific, so there is little pressure on the European front… we did not get to finish this game, but I am not sure if the Germans would have won this match.

Also, I have seen a lot of posts about using the Italians to attack Russia, and I just do not think that it is very feasible.  Italy has so many things to worry about and so few resources to do them… in the 3rd scenario, the Axis (Italian) player was able to launch an attack into Russia through Persia, but it was easily crushed… there where just not enough resources to make the attack sustainable.

I think that there is some balancing in order here… Russia should not be able to defeat the Axis on their own with out significant help

[Jennifer]

What do you consider standard German 1 buy?  Submarine, Destroyer, Aircraft Carrier?  That’s what I consider a standard buy, but then, I consider Sea Lion standard…

What about, instead: 2 Transports, 4 Artillery and invade Russia round 1?

Anyone try that?  Your fighters can easily cover the transports in SZ 113 (with the BB you are NOT sending ot SZ 112!) and you have 3 transports to use in holding Scandinavia and attacking Novgorod?

Factory is a bad idea, IMHO.  You’ll never utilize it fully. (3 France, 10 W. Germany, 10 E. Germany and 10 Romania?  You’d need 99 IPC income just to use everything and build all infantry!)

[Robbernosky]

I don’t think a turn 1 invasion would turn out well.