Proposed unit values for FMG and COI using D6 or national D12 values

[Imperious Leader]

APs should defend at 1. but why not at planes? seems the only defence that transports really had was small anti-aircraft guns against fighters and tacs. I would have it transports ONLY defend @1 against fighters and tacs

some merchant ships were armed or even Q ships

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

as you can see the reason they were armed were to surprise and fight enemy subs and small vessels attempting to sink them. They have no record against fighting airpower. They mostly had a hidden deck gun which was only suited to get a shot at the surface ship attempting to sink them

[Sime]

What cost would you make the trucks?

[Imperious Leader]

Not sure yet. Probably about 6 IPC-8 IPC each. Depends on playtest. The other units have been tested many times over many years.

[Razor]

What I miss is a selfpropelled Artillery piece.

We got 2 kinds of infantry, 2 kinds of tanks, 2 kinds of fighters, but only one King of the Battlefield.

Selfpropelled artillery, cost 5 IPC, move 2, attack 2 and def 2 and boost one matching infantry.

The inf/art combo cost 7 IPC and move 1 space.
The Mech/Sp.Art combo cost 9 IPC and move 2 spaces.

Tank/Mech cost 10 IPC and attack with 4 pips.
Sp.Art/Mech cost 9 IPC and attack with 4 pips.

Nobody will buy tanks anymore ?
Unless the Blitz- rule says tanks, and tanks only, may move one additional space after combat in the first place. Then tanks could retreat and hide in a friendly terr (superior strafe attack unit) or blitz into next enemy terr.

Anyway, the Selfpropelleds sure look good:

[DrLarsen]

@Imperious:

fighters at 6 is a bust. A flying tank that covers 2 more spaces and can more efficiently react to many combat situations is worth 4 IPC

I don’t believe in all these bonuses. Only tanks should effect any other land units with combined. Artillery boosting infantry is nonsense. No infantry got double strength on attack any more than any other units fighting together would.

not finished with fighter-bombers, they may get some “if they roll a one they choose hit type of thing”

This is where I propose the having two hits for heavy bombers idea: heavy bombers, who couldn’t target as accurately but could drop more bombs have 2 attacks at a 2 or 3 and tac bombers, who could do precision attacks, have one attack, but at a 4

[Imperious Leader]

Bombers with two attacks like in The War Game?  Naw thats too radical and bombers would get priced too high for that advantage. If you lost the bomber you would never rebuild it.

[DrLarsen]

@Imperious:

Bombers with two attacks like in The War Game?  Naw thats too radical and bombers would get priced too high for that advantage. If you lost the bomber you would never rebuild it.

That’s exactly what I’m thinking (and I freely admit that that’s where I got the idea; I’d been experimenting for years with d12-based systems before I got TWG but their multiple attacks idea was, I thought, genius.)  I don’t remember off-hand how much they cost in TWG, but I don’t remember them being exhorbitant.  I also like their idea of giving CA’s and BB’s an additional attack/defense for their secondary (at a 2, since BB/CA secondaries were similar and/or identical to DD-guns in their punching power) which makes the larger ships more worthwhile (as opposed to having massive fleets of only small ships: there’s a reason why they didn’t do that in the real world…)

[lnmajor]

I think the secondaries for BB/CAs should only be for AA fire.

[Imperious Leader]

but I don’t remember them being exorbitant

In that game (where i was a play-tester and worked on the map), Bombers are very pricy and seldom bought. The player who is cash rich and needs something to attack and sink a navy will buy them. This is only the US player and seldom any other player except sometimes the UK player who cant buy a fleet because it will be sunk.

They average about 30 IPC ( compared to 5 for infantry and 11-14 for a tank). IN that game they are not used for SBR, but for killing navy with subs as fodder.

[DrLarsen]

@Imperious:

but I don’t remember them being exorbitant

In that game (where i was a play-tester and worked on the map), Bombers are very pricy and seldom bought. The player who is cash rich and needs something to attack and sink a navy will buy them. This is only the US player and seldom any other player except sometimes the UK player who cant buy a fleet because it will be sunk.

They average about 30 IPC ( compared to 5 for infantry and 11-14 for a tank). IN that game they are not used for SBR, but for killing navy with subs as fodder.

Well, that makes them 6x the price of infantry rather than 5x like the original MB version (and remember that the nations had roughly twice the IPC values as in AA, so the sticker shock should be mitigated due to the general TWG “inflation” of all units.)  I’d say that 5x is about right… maybe even reduce them to 4x infantry to make them more attractive to buy.  I know that even at that rate more pragmatic players rarely buy pricey units (I know that I treat all high-value units, even tanks, like gold, and rarely buy many more than I’m initially given… but I also use the games I design partly as a way to teach students about military history and I’m hardly an ace “tournament” player like you, Imperious…)

[Imperious Leader]

So at 5x and assuming TWG is balanced after 21 years of play ( it originated in 1990), to extrapolate the bomber in cost with the infantry being 3 IPC makes the bomber like 15-18IPC if it was introduced in AA, so you can see that such a unit would not be replaced often.

[Razor]

What I miss is a selfpropelled Artillery piece.

We got 2 kinds of infantry, 2 kinds of tanks, 2 kinds of fighters, but only one King of the Battlefield.

Selfpropelled artillery, cost 5 IPC, move 2, attack 2 and def 2 and boost one matching infantry.

The inf/art combo cost 7 IPC and move 1 space.
The Mech/Sp.Art combo cost 9 IPC and move 2 spaces.

Tank/Mech cost 10 IPC and attack with 4 pips.
Sp.Art/Mech cost 9 IPC and attack with 4 pips.

Nobody will buy tanks anymore ?
Unless the Blitz- rule says tanks, and tanks only, may move one additional space after combat in the first place. Then tanks could retreat and hide in a friendly terr (superior strafe attack unit) or blitz into next enemy terr.

Anyway, the Selfpropelleds sure look good:

[DrLarsen]

@Imperious:

So at 5x and assuming TWG is balanced after 21 years of play ( it originated in 1990), to extrapolate the bomber in cost with the infantry being 3 IPC makes the bomber like 15-18IPC if it was introduced in AA, so you can see that such a unit would not be replaced often.

Which is exactly what it was in the original MB edition…

[Imperious Leader]

Which is exactly what it was in the original MB edition…

And why seldom players bought that unit and why it was ultimately dropped in cost.

So the combat values need to drop or something else because thats what a 4x2 unit might cost in this game and that makes it not much of a replacement due to this great cost.

[Razor]

any comments on the Selfproppeled ?

[i rock]

Why would you spend money on a tank mech combo when a spa mech combo is the same attack and same speed?

[Razor]

@i:

Why would you spend money on a tank mech combo when a spa mech combo is the same attack and same speed?

Like I said, Tanks should be able to move one more space after finishing combat in the first terr.

You can strafe attack a terr and kill the one enemy inf, then your inf must stay, but your tanks may retreat to a friendly space. Now the tank is a superior strafe attack unit, better than fighters.
Or you can make a major attack against a huge enemy inf-stack, and after you won the combat, your tank-stack may blitz into the next enemy terr, to a second combat. After all the Blitzkrieg doctrine with breakthoroughs and exploitations was based on tanks, because tanks got better mobility and speed than the slow inf and art.

Now both Mech inf, selfpropelled art and tanks all move two spaces, and have equal firepower, but the tanks are more versatile. So you need inf and art for the main assault, and tanks for flank protection. After all that is what cavallery was made for in the first place, man.

[Imperious Leader]

I think all the combo boost thing has lost its tarnish. I think it just slows down the game dealing with all these ‘extra spices combos’

[Razor]

@Imperious:

I think all the combo boost thing has lost its tarnish. I think it just slows down the game dealing with all these ‘extra spices combos’

I cant belive this is comin from the inventor of Advanced A&A.

Now I need a cold bear.

[Imperious Leader]

I have many years with all these various combo boosts and i find that players find all these special attack and defense bonuses cumbersome.

Tanks should boost infantry/mech and thats pretty much it.

Artillery should not boost anything

fighters should not boost fighter bombers, etc.