I don’t see Muskva as viable, for the given reasons:
1) England can take the Middle East with India
2) England can hold Africa with London
3) England can reinforce Russia with London (exchange for N. Africa)
4) Russia can turtle hard
5) German supply trains are really long
6) Germany has to reinforce the west while fighting in the east
Essentially, it’s the same problem that destroyed Hitler. Germany (all things being equal) shouldn’t be able to take out Russia before England goes. Not with players of equable skill and dice not biased for one side or the other.
For myself i do it like Krieg. I just freak U.K long enough for me to attack Russia with a massive force. I mean, if U.K d’ont protect London after seeing transports in range and all the planes then ok go for sealion. I Understand the fact that sealion is very a good option for Germany. But if U.K put all the possible defense in there and buy some good stuff then the battle is not won. As U.S.A i always go in both theaters. If Londonc fall its not game over but if Moscow fall then i call it a game over.
But im for a + 2 inf on Londonc or a canadian fighter who can land on U.K 1 in London. Cause i know that if U.K doesnt put all he can in London with a german player who wants London then it fall.
Put it all in London on R1. When Germany doesn’t buy transports on R2, then buy fighters on R2. If Germany doesn’t buy transports on R3, buy units for Africa and naval assets in Canada on R3. By Round 4 or 5, it’s too late for Germany.
I believe Jenn’s argument is based not on what Germany does (Sealion or no, but Sealion gives Germany the quickest income boost), but on what the US is able to do. If the US fully commits to the Pacific, Russia & the UK can hold Germany back long enough for Japan to be neutered and the US to be able to go to the Atlantic with overwhelming income, even when ignoring them for 6 rounds.
I understand the basis of the argument. It’s been well-documented here. However, I’m seeing only one other person that agrees with it, while several others disagree. What I’m not seeing is explanations of why people disagree with it. I see lots of posts of things like “that’s not my experience”, but few of them give specifics as to why. Explanations from anyone who disagrees would be helpful.
@Cmdr:
I don’t see Muskva as viable, for the given reasons:
- England can take the Middle East with India
- England can hold Africa with London
- England can reinforce Russia with London (exchange for N. Africa)
- Russia can turtle hard
- German supply trains are really long
- Germany has to reinforce the west while fighting in the east
Essentially, it’s the same problem that destroyed Hitler. Germany (all things being equal) shouldn’t be able to take out Russia before England goes. Not with players of equable skill and dice not biased for one side or the other.
Is Germany destroying England’s home fleet? What are Italy and Japan doing while UK is running rampant in Africa and the Middle East? If India is moving significant forces west, Japan should be able to take it and the DEI easily. I’m not seeing UK having this kind of power in my games.
Also, what is Germany buying and sending against the Soviets? Sealion can be effectively threatened without buying a single transport, and the Luftwaffe can keep London at arm’s length for a few rounds after that, allowing Germany to buy quite a few land units in the next several rounds after the first.
Is Germany destroying England’s home fleet?
What are Italy and Japan doing while UK is running rampant in Africa and the Middle East?
If India is moving significant forces west, Japan should be able to take it and the DEI easily. I’m not seeing UK having this kind of power in my games.
Also, what is Germany buying and sending against the Soviets?
Sealion can be effectively threatened without buying a single transport, and the Luftwaffe can keep London at arm’s length for a few rounds after that, allowing Germany to buy quite a few land units in the next several rounds after the first.
1.) Yes
2.) Pushing forward toward China and India
3.) India doesn’t move west right away- maybe around round 5-6. By that time US (if going 100% Pacific) has built a massive stack in the South Pacific, threatening a counter attack on DEI, launch on Tokyo itself, solidly defending ANZAC and Honolulu. India moves toward Russia when and if necessary- if Japan take the bait, the US makes them pay- very simple. Your not seeing it because nobody has the balls to try the 100% Pacific approach- don’t knock til you try. Granted you must play Russia wisely with efficient buys and such.
4.) Germany buys what they always buy- a combo of inf and art/tanks maybe a plane or two over a few rounds- in other words- efficient buys that max the most punch possible.
5.) If you go Barby, then England makes cash, you lose a VC you need- doesn’t matter if you hold them for a few rounds AND you will NOT get Africa- you make it easier for the US by round 9-10.
The full pacific monty is what I routinely pull now. It’s just a matter of when I switch out.
A variant: Minor Complex in Brazil, 2 infantry, fighter a round into Central Africa. No word yet on the viability of that, but as it’s only a large initial outlay and only really 6 or 7 IPC a round (occassional 10 for a fighter) it isn’t going to have a large impact on a nation producting 82 IPC a round or more.
Anyway yes, India moves en masse into the Middle East starting on round 5 or 6 once America has unified with Australia and established a large foot hold in the Pacific. This allows India to focus on self defense primarily, sail the BB/CA out to join the American fleet and then move into the Middle East denying 5 IPC for Caucasus, 2 IPC for Iraq, 2 IPC for C. Persia and 2 IPC for N. Persia to Italy. (Not including actual land mass value being denied.)
Also, I like putting a complex in C. Persia for England by this point, assuming England has been liberated (and by round 12, I don’t see why it isn’t.)
As for “putzing around Africa all this time” what’s putzing? You hit Ethiopia, Tobruk and SZ 97 round 1. It’ll be 3 or 4 rounds before Italy’s recovered from that, unless the dice go badly. And that’s just recovered, that’s not really moving forward as they would be if you had left it. What did you invest? a couple aircraft the rest was already trapped there.
From there, it’s a matter of securing London (if you are not doing Sea Lion, this just gives me a bunch of guys to ferry later once I have my fleet up).
And yes, I assume SZ 111, SZ 91 and SZ 106 were hit with no losses to Germany in this plan.
The allies attack on tobruk round 1 is a little ridiculous. The Italian navy is in no position to attack the British fleet based off malta and going for cairo leaves rome/northern italy exposed and will be a temporary gain at best. In my game all of tobruk was killed with only 2 british inf deaths. Also, I tried a direct push for moscow from south and it was impossible. I had built a major in romania and it still wasn’t enough. How does one win at barbarossa in alpha 2?
General way England goes about Africa, with a full Africa campaign, IMHO and as I have seen:
3 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Armor, 1 Fighter to Tobruk
Odds: 88.2%
Result: 3 Infantry, MI Lost 20% of the time
3 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier to SZ 97
Odds: Calculators cannot handle 2 hit carriers or change in ool, done by LL
Result: 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber Remaining
2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Cruiser to Ethiopia
Odds: 40%
Result: Nothing left
So I wouldn’t say a British campaign in Africa is so over powering so much as it just kicks Italy in the shin, throws some dust in its eyes and runs away. If this is removed as an option, we may as well make England a neutral with allied leanings.
However, if you prefer, we can move the British fleet back to Gibraltar where it should never have been moved away from! Would solve the Sea Lion problem, but would only reinforce the need to buff up Japan (which, IMHO, was nerfed WAY too hard from where it was in OOB.)
Where does one find these Alpha 2 adjustments? Are they online?
Is Germany destroying England’s home fleet?
What are Italy and Japan doing while UK is running rampant in Africa and the Middle East?
If India is moving significant forces west, Japan should be able to take it and the DEI easily. I’m not seeing UK having this kind of power in my games.
Also, what is Germany buying and sending against the Soviets?
Sealion can be effectively threatened without buying a single transport, and the Luftwaffe can keep London at arm’s length for a few rounds after that, allowing Germany to buy quite a few land units in the next several rounds after the first.
1.) Yes
2.) Pushing forward toward China and India
3.) India doesn’t move west right away- maybe around round 5-6. By that time US (if going 100% Pacific) has built a massive stack in the South Pacific, threatening a counter attack on DEI, launch on Tokyo itself, solidly defending ANZAC and Honolulu. India moves toward Russia when and if necessary- if Japan take the bait, the US makes them pay- very simple. Your not seeing it because nobody has the balls to try the 100% Pacific approach- don’t knock til you try. Granted you must play Russia wisely with efficient buys and such.
4.) Germany buys what they always buy- a combo of inf and art/tanks maybe a plane or two over a few rounds- in other words- efficient buys that max the most punch possible.
5.) If you go Barby, then England makes cash, you lose a VC you need- doesn’t matter if you hold them for a few rounds AND you will NOT get Africa- you make it easier for the US by round 9-10.
3.) Launch on Tokyo by round 5 or 6??? Even if the US goes 100% Pacific (at least for the first few rounds) it cannot take Tokyo unless you are playing against a moron. Seriously, Japan is not to be underestimated and you simply cannot make a blind statement like that (explain how you put yourself in that position by that round and get past the huge navy, airforce and men that Japan can put there or attack preemptively with, not to mention the kamakazis). IMHO if US goes 100% in either theater, the allies lose.
4.) Why do they always buy that? Its not always more important to buy the most punch possible if it takes too long to get into position. Try buying mech and tanks along with airpower. Germany can be at Moscow’s doorstep with (for example) 24 Inf, 5 Art, 7 Mech, 21 Tanks, and a bunch of airpower by ROUND 4 and hit Russia round 5 against 40+ Inf and maybe a couple planes and tanks (thats 100+ attack with 50+ units - not counting the luftwaffe! - vs 80-90+ defence with 40+ units ). Now Germany has time to prepare a welcoming party for those India troops since the US is busy in the Pacific with Japan (basically a 1 on 1) and Russia is dead leaving UK Europe alone against both Italy and a monster Germany. Oh yeah, and that’s NOT going sealion.
5.) Yeah UK makes cash, but Russia gives everthing to the Axis (its income when captured as well as its territorial income and dont forget about german objective income - 20 IPCs plus middle east) By round 9 or 10 UK is trying to stay alive after you have given the axis all of Asia, Europe and at least half of Africa = over half the board!! It depends on who you play against but a good axis player will take advantage of what you give him and ignor what you dont give him. Sea Lion can be good but not EVERY time. And above all else dont be predictable.
after trying it a few times either way I prefer going for Russia (after the initial scare to UK). it’s true the Uk can grow big but you can’t ignore Russia for 3 to 4 rounds they can grow big too, and the UK can remain hobbled by the Luftwaffe and minimal German naval purchases. another reason being that with going Sealion first you still will have a two front war with the US stepping in, whereas with Russian Bear down you can focus towards the single front UK/US.
for a Russian assault I go with mechs and tanks (odd variations) funneling through Leningrad or Stalingrad (I play with the same guys and try not to mix it up). and always with the bombing runs on those two cities, wherever the Russkies don’t have their fighters and Tacs. with the French IPCs I always grab a second Strategic Bomber.
that should read “try to mix it up”.
@Cmdr:
General way England goes about Africa, with a full Africa campaign, IMHO and as I have seen:
3 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Armor, 1 Fighter to Tobruk
Odds: 88.2%
Result: 3 Infantry, MI Lost 20% of the time3 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier to SZ 97
Odds: Calculators cannot handle 2 hit carriers or change in ool, done by LL
Result: 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber Remaining2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Cruiser to Ethiopia
Odds: 40%
Result: Nothing leftSo I wouldn’t say a British campaign in Africa is so over powering so much as it just kicks Italy in the shin, throws some dust in its eyes and runs away. If this is removed as an option, we may as well make England a neutral with allied leanings.
I’m not sure the Ethiopia battle is that necessary, those troops in IEA cannot escape and will die to reinforcements moving up from Saf.
In my home games, the Italians are not under duress on the first turn anymore.
Lets look at Tobruk first, 3 inf, 2 art 1 MI 1 arm and 1 ftr vs. 3inf, 1 art, 1 MI, 1 arm and 2 ftrs 1 tac…/these/ odds for the British are 90% to lose…
For the sz 97 battle, if Germany can get 2 ftrs to SItaly, that lets you scramble 3 ftrs to defend the Italian ships and the UK player has a 87% chance of clearing the sz.
So germany actually has an easier time defending Tobruk than the sz, I still prefer both moves to give me the option of scrambling as the axis.
I still feel that the game could be totally balanced with very minor changes. Make Italy neutral until their first turn. This would mean Germ cannot hit SFrance on G1, but would also lend to the historical accuracy of the game(because Germ wasn’t able to attack SFrance until they took NFrance anyways) The only other chance I would suggest is adding 1 more trn to Japan. This lets them take the DEI on J2 if they want.
I can think of other changes I would like, for instance a Germ dd in Baltic and Russian dd in Archangel, but that is more to represent the fleets in those areas than balancing the game, therefore they are not suggested.
How are you getting 90% odds for England to lose in Tobruk? The calculators disagree with you GREATLY saying England has an 88% chance to WIN in Tobruk, as listed.
Ethiopia isn’t “necessary” I just do it as a PR move. I generally win the fight, but even if I lose and only take out one or two of them, it really hamstrings them in the south.
Ah, well then they are out of position, but I agree, I would probably not do the attack with any extra airpower there. Then again, with all of Germany’s planes in the south, I might just withdraw the fleet into the Red Sea and use them to help with Japan. Better than losing them, IMHO.
interesting, this is what my opponent did as well, this move of bringing aircraft to Tobruk not only saves the Ialian army, but also the Italian fleet.
interesting, this is what my opponent did as well, this move of bringing aircraft to Tobruk not only saves the Ialian army, but also the Italian fleet.
My success rate attacking the Italian fleet has been nil lately. I damage the battleship and get nothing else, so all I did was waste the British. I know the calculators all say significant odds for England if they attack it.
3.) Launch on Tokyo by round 5 or 6??? Even if the US goes 100% Pacific (at least for the first few rounds) it cannot take Tokyo unless you are playing against a moron. Seriously, Japan is not to be underestimated and you simply cannot make a blind statement like that (explain how you put yourself in that position by that round and get past the huge navy, airforce and men that Japan can put there or attack preemptively with, not to mention the kamakazis). IMHO if US goes 100% in either theater, the allies lose.
4.) Why do they always buy that? Its not always more important to buy the most punch possible if it takes too long to get into position. Try buying mech and tanks along with airpower. Germany can be at Moscow’s doorstep with (for example) 24 Inf, 5 Art, 7 Mech, 21 Tanks, and a bunch of airpower by ROUND 4 and hit Russia round 5 against 40+ Inf and maybe a couple planes and tanks (thats 100+ attack with 50+ units - not counting the luftwaffe! - vs 80-90+ defence with 40+ units ). Now Germany has time to prepare a welcoming party for those India troops since the US is busy in the Pacific with Japan (basically a 1 on 1) and Russia is dead leaving UK Europe alone against both Italy and a monster Germany. Oh yeah, and that’s NOT going sealion.
5.) Yeah UK makes cash, but Russia gives everthing to the Axis (its income when captured as well as its territorial income and dont forget about german objective income - 20 IPCs plus middle east) By round 9 or 10 UK is trying to stay alive after you have given the axis all of Asia, Europe and at least half of Africa = over half the board!! It depends on who you play against but a good axis player will take advantage of what you give him and ignor what you dont give him. Sea Lion can be good but not EVERY time. And above all else dont be predictable.
I’m not gonna waste my breath on this one… :roll:
Jen has already discussed how in detail- I suggest you go back and READ-school yourself my friend and try it!!! :-D
Keep in mind, if Germany goes Barbarrossa over Sea Lion it’s abilities to stop the British fleet drop to near zero and it’s abilities to maintain its own fleet likewise drop to zero. This assumes a 100% directed effort to take Muskva (hell they’re calling them Novgorod and Volgorod, why not call it Muskva then, eh?). That means, no new airbases, naval bases, no added fleet units, airpower has to move east due to range, etc.
Sure. Germany could get Muskva by round 6 or 7 then. (Russia will of course see this coming and modify it’s own strategy accordingly, instead of getting any new air power or armored units, they might just dump 10 infantry a round on Muskva and retreat everything back leaving Germany with one helluva stack of units to contend with.
38 Infantry
3 Artillery
2 MI
2 Arm
2 Fig
1 Tac
Starting
It’s pretty safe to say Russia will have:
90 Infnatry, 2 MI, 3 Artillery, 2 Armor, 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber and an AA Gun (3 AA Guns maybe, though, I would retreat some to stop Japanese blitzes).
Note: 210 IPC would give Russia 108 Infantry, I am saying it is safe to assume 90 Infantry which is 17% less infantry than they could have.
Germany, meanwhile, is stretched out all to kingdom come, they’re out of position, they have lost the initiative in the Atlantic, Italy is NOT in control of all of Africa, more likely they are in control of Egypt, Jordan, N. Africa, Gibraltar and the Sudan, but not much further as they have a British floatilla landing in Morocco and some British units coming up from the south. Not to forget Indian units moving into the Middle east to pen them in all nice and tight.
Also, this maneuver for England doesn’t lock them out of Europe. Thanks to Naval Bases England can easily bring 6 ground units in a round (3 from Africa, 3 from Canada) and be out of range of enemy planes (ie no naval ships needed to protect transports, s. africans walk/drive north), maybe even have a complex in C. Persia for 9 units a round into Africa.
Given all this, I can easily see Germany being stuck in the Russian mud, Japan being locked to an island / the Korea/Manchuria territories and England strong enough to start threatening a solo D-Day or invasion of Italy.
All because Germany left them alone to build.
And if Germany decides NOT to go 100% against Russia, then what’s the point? You don’t have the strength to do both which means you won’t accomplish either. All that changes, really, is the rate in which Russia retreats in front of you, laughing at your tanks as you get stuck in the mud and run out of fuel.
I like Jens idea for an American NO in north Africa instead of the Mexican. I think this would ease some pressure off japan and allow the European axis powers some sway in hurting the USA economy. It would also give the USA incentive to build in the alantic early in the game.
As for changing the turn order I like the fact that Italy and Germany have the one two punch if you take that away from them ot would hurt the European axis too much. Maybe just have Italy go first this way they could save their navy, freeing up German aircraft.
