Thank you guys! That is exactly what I was hoping to hear.
Changes still needed to the game, IMHO
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Not to get into historical debates but I do believe US would have done something if DEI was attacked. Britain would have also. Japan was being monitored for a while up to this point and patience was running thin anyway. Japan knew this so they jumped the gun.
But i just posted intercepted information that Germany passed to Japan which details what UK was prepared to do if that event occurred.
SECRET COPY 72
COS (40) 302 (also w.P. (40) 302)
TO BE KEPT UNDER LOCK AND KEY
IT IS REQUESTED THAT SPECIAL CARE BE TAKEN TO ENSURE THE
SECRECY OF THIS DOCUMENT.
It was an extraordinary find, particularly on a merchant ship.
Captain Rogge aboard Atlantis knew exactly what he’d stumbled on.
The document’s author was the British War Cabinet. Incredibly, it was a
detailed summation of the British Empire’s overall military structure and
capability in the Far East. Rogge decided to get the document into his
superiors’ hands as quickly as the time and place allowed. Atlantis had
been hunting the seas with enormous success in previous days, and only
the day before had captured the Ole jacob with a primarily Norwegian
crew. Captain Rogge commissioned Lieutenant Commander Paul
Kamenz to take command of the Ole jacob, and with six German crew
supplemented by Norwegians from two recently plundered prizes she
sailed for Japan, berthing in Kobe on December 4th 1940. Automedon
was sent below with scuttling charges, and her remaining crewmen sailed
with Atlantis.When Ole jacob docked in Kobe there waiting for her was a correspondent who obtained the document and sped it to Admiral Paul
Wenneker, German Naval Attache to Japan. The Admiral sent a
summation in German, directly to Berlin, translated back into English as
follows:It says only if the Dutch decided to really fight did UK plan on doing anything, but the general situation was so dire that it was also considered that the best plan was to avoid anything to provoke Japan and avoid a general war. The only thing that was not explored would be what ANZAC might do. DEI is very close to Australia so its possible they might do something.
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As far as units go, I would be much more inclined to believe Japan needs +2 Submarines, +1 Transport down in the South Pacific than 7 Infanty and an Artillery scattered around China and Japan. Just IMHO.
Ground units Japan has more than enough capacity to build, naval units is where Japan got seriously short-changed! For instance, a transport off the Carolines (SZ 33), a submarine off Formosa (SZ 20) and a Submarine off Palau (SZ 34) would be a much better situation than a few extra infantry.
The transport would give Japan the option to hit Pearl hard - without tilting the balance of power. (This would allow Japan to repair their ships and use the Naval Base on Round 2, should they go with the Round 1 sneak attack. It also denies America the ability to land on Hawaii after counter-attacking the Japanese fleet.)
The submarine in SZ 20 would add a little extra punch should Japan go for the British Battleboat off Malaya, again, not a drastic change. Meanwhile, if Japan does not go for the Battleboat off Malaya, it’s too far away to do anything else of note this round - and is not adjacent to a naval base. Essentially, it can get to SZ 6 or spend a round or two getting into position elsewhere.
The submarine in SZ 34 is out of position to hit anything, but can move to Queensland and conduct convoy raids if it wants. Probably what would happen is it would move to the Carolines, but would be out of position to be used on round 1 - which was the point.
Essentially, other than the transport that was removed and now to be replaced, the new units are not in a position to significantly alter the balance of power, but they do add a little backbone to the Japanese navy, and give Japan more options - which, I believe, is the point.
As for the transport, I think that was, perhaps, the most significant nerf that Mr. Larry did, and that de-railed their attempts to balance the Pacific. I would not say that alone would recover Japan’s ability to hold it’s own, as many of the aircraft were also removed from the game, but it would go a long way to establishing Japan’s ability to defend itself.
Now, Questioneer says 25 IPC to balance things…50 IPC would be better, but 19 IPC placed in very strategic locations may do the trick. No idea. Honestly, I’d take 25 IPC because I can abuse it. (Transport in Carolines, 2 Transports in Japan, Artillery in KWA). I’d hit Hawaii, Philippines, Hong Kong, the BB by Malaya, Alaska and some other prime targets (primarily to deny America the NO for Alaska.) But, as I said, that would be an abuse of the resources and is primarily intended to demonstrate why it is not the COST of the resources, but rather the LOCATION of the resources and TYPE of resources added. Hence, my references to higher values than Questioneers. (I believe he will agree that a 25 IPC bid would effectively alter the game significantly, given how I just outlayed where things could go. America without 15 IPC from NOs, removal of most of the fleet, inability to effectively counter attack (no LZ) and Japan ability to now hit Australia from Philippines and Hawaii would be a huge shift - equally as bad as “American Exceptionalism” making America way too powerful, in comparison to other nations.)
Honestly, this started as a method to find the least invasive method of balancing an unbalanced theater of operations. Least invasive would be re-arranging units, restoring units lost due to game board configuration changes, changing how a nation can spend money, etc. Things like adding extra units (as opposed to replacing ones that were removed by an earlier change), adding new VCs, adding new NOs, etc are more invasive - in my mind.
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Another option I have been concidering is a change to the not at war NO to allow the invasion of FIC. Before Alpha a J2 purchase of a minor for FIC was just enough pressure on India and the Burma road to keep them in line.
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We’ve discussed changes to the FIC NO. My personal favorite (if my only option is to mess with the FIC NO) is to make it active when America is not at war with Japan or when Japan controls the Philippines.
This allows the Allies to take it away, like any other NO, but also keeps it in play at least twice as long as it normally is. It also stops the Minor IC build in FIC with Japan.
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The one thing I don’t see is what happened at Mid Way Island, could you imagine if they put that set of bad rolls in the game. How could you simulate that into your game? A few free rolls with no DE.
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Japan lost at Midway….
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That
s what hes saying Jen… -
That
s what hes saying Jen…Then how’s that going to help Japan? America is not under-powered, they’re over-powered, Japan is the one that needs assistance.
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@Cmdr:
As far as units go, I would be much more inclined to believe Japan needs +2 Submarines, +1 Transport down in the South Pacific than 7 Infanty and an Artillery scattered around China and Japan. Just IMHO.
Ground units Japan has more than enough capacity to build, naval units is where Japan got seriously short-changed! For instance, a transport off the Carolines (SZ 33), a submarine off Formosa (SZ 20) and a Submarine off Palau (SZ 34) would be a much better situation than a few extra infantry.
The transport would give Japan the option to hit Pearl hard - without tilting the balance of power. (This would allow Japan to repair their ships and use the Naval Base on Round 2, should they go with the Round 1 sneak attack. It also denies America the ability to land on Hawaii after counter-attacking the Japanese fleet.)
The submarine in SZ 20 would add a little extra punch should Japan go for the British Battleboat off Malaya, again, not a drastic change. Meanwhile, if Japan does not go for the Battleboat off Malaya, it’s too far away to do anything else of note this round - and is not adjacent to a naval base. Essentially, it can get to SZ 6 or spend a round or two getting into position elsewhere.
The submarine in SZ 34 is out of position to hit anything, but can move to Queensland and conduct convoy raids if it wants. Probably what would happen is it would move to the Carolines, but would be out of position to be used on round 1 - which was the point.
Essentially, other than the transport that was removed and now to be replaced, the new units are not in a position to significantly alter the balance of power, but they do add a little backbone to the Japanese navy, and give Japan more options - which, I believe, is the point.
As for the transport, I think that was, perhaps, the most significant nerf that Mr. Larry did, and that de-railed their attempts to balance the Pacific. I would not say that alone would recover Japan’s ability to hold it’s own, as many of the aircraft were also removed from the game, but it would go a long way to establishing Japan’s ability to defend itself.
Now, Questioneer says 25 IPC to balance things…50 IPC would be better, but 19 IPC placed in very strategic locations may do the trick. No idea. Honestly, I’d take 25 IPC because I can abuse it. (Transport in Carolines, 2 Transports in Japan, Artillery in KWA). I’d hit Hawaii, Philippines, Hong Kong, the BB by Malaya, Alaska and some other prime targets (primarily to deny America the NO for Alaska.) But, as I said, that would be an abuse of the resources and is primarily intended to demonstrate why it is not the COST of the resources, but rather the LOCATION of the resources and TYPE of resources added. Hence, my references to higher values than Questioneers. (I believe he will agree that a 25 IPC bid would effectively alter the game significantly, given how I just outlayed where things could go. America without 15 IPC from NOs, removal of most of the fleet, inability to effectively counter attack (no LZ) and Japan ability to now hit Australia from Philippines and Hawaii would be a huge shift - equally as bad as “American Exceptionalism” making America way too powerful, in comparison to other nations.)
Wouldn’t that just bring back the “India Crush”???- Japan would certainly get 6IPCs for sure, not even giving America a chance. I’m not really buying it. Your 2SS, 1TT idea I think swings a huge breaker momentum the other way. Like the Europe side, this side is real touchy to balance.
Adding/changing NOs or adding ships or NBs, or aircraft as too “fast” of units to add. I think the best way is to add slow ground troops away from the action- like I’ve proposed. Those land units will come in handy late in the game (like Russia’s from the East), giving a long term balance (which is what is needed for Japan) versus messing up opening balance right now.
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I was referring, mostly, to how bad it would be to implement a bidding system. Since the pacific side is grossly unbalanced, bids would have to be significant to balance things out. However, significantly bidding can (and probably will) lead to unbalancing the game towards the other spectrum.
Honestly, if we are adding units to the game, toss a transport back by the Carolines, add a tank to lower China (for Japan, thinking KSI, KSU area maybe) and that should about do it.
Or, just put a minor complex in Korea…that could do it too.
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OR. Put a minor in Hong Kong or FIC? That would be interesting.
If france survives G1, they can build in the PAC!
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The one in Korea seems to be in the most logical spot. FIC and Hong Kong both prevent an upgrade to Major and both locations are much closer to India. (Not to mention, these are places people generally build complexes anyway.)
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@mantlefan:
@Cmdr:
The one in Korea seems to be in the most logical spot. FIC and Hong Kong both prevent an upgrade to Major and both locations are much closer to India. (Not to mention, these are places people generally build complexes anyway.)
Manchuria makes the most sense from an industrial development standpoint, and it’s far from necessary that it needs to be upgradable.
No, but the option is nice.
Perhaps if the complex rule was amended to read upgradable complexes on territories you start the game controlling….
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Not to mention, these are places people generally build complexes anyway.)
That’s my point exactly.
If Japan was busy building units instead of complexes, It not only could it send out attacking units earlier from the zones where the complexes are, but also have extra on the ground fighting units. - It gives the Japanese an Edge, in China, as well as in the defense of it’s fleet mid to late game along the coast of China.
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Yes, but those territories are not Japanese to begin with. A complex in Hong Kong would make it harder to take. A complex in FIC isn’t going to be usable until Round 3 or 4 anyway.
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HK might be harder to take, sure, but if they choose to defend it, India will be ALOT easier to take.
And FIC then becomes a good question, do I take it, just BEFORE my DOW on the US / UK? So that I can build into it the following turn? Definetely a good question…
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I like the idea of a minor in FIC you could even place some token French troops to guard it.
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I like the idea of a minor in FIC you could even place some token French troops to guard it.
But, how does that help Japan?
1) They cannot use it unless they invade
2) If they invade, they lose the NO
3) If they cannot use it until round 4, how does it help them at all?The idea is to help Japan! Not the allies!
Now, if you made FIC a Japanese territory, gave them the NO until the Allies capture FIC and put a minor industrial there, you might be on to something. But, I wager, many of the players might think that is too powerful, as it would be at least 6 rounds before the Allies have a chance to capture FIC, thus, you have essentially given Japan 72 IPC worth of bid. (6 rounds times 10 IPC + cost of the industrial…this, of course, does not count the 8 IPC extra Japan earns from the four free rounds of income for FIC, nor does it take into account the opportunity cost of having the complex from round 1, three steps from India.)
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In a recient game as japan I gave up the NO first turn to take FIC and j2 build a factory. I found that having the troops right where I needed them almost as useful as a 10 ipc bonus for 2 to 3 turns.
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A FREE complex the Axis gets to take - HELPS JAPAN.
Sorry if you couldn’t read into that intention in my post.
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