@Private-Mike Np. If you ever want to play test anything on triple A, shoot me a message!
Sealion alpha 2+
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If I plan for Sea Lion (and that is the topic of the thread, so let’s assume I do) I would go Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer, Submarine.
Why?
The Carrier and Destroyer along with scrambled fighters from Hamburg, Germany (W. Germany) should be more than enough to stop England from sinking your fleet.
The Submarine is insurance against the England NO for no German submarines on the Atlantic board. I have, on more than one occasion, lost every starting submarine I had without killing a single dang British ship outside of SZ 111 (because I overwhelm it with half a dozen planes and a pair of submarines, survival for England would require a reboot of the universe.)I also assume the following:
- Bulgaria absorbed
- Finland absorbed
- Normandy/W. France taken
- France Taken
- Yugoslavia taken
This should give Germany 70 IPC to spend on Round 2.
Now, if your attacks went average or well, on Germany 2 you can put 10 transports in the water (11 total on the board.) If England went into the Med to deny Italy the NO there, take Gibraltar with one transport and lock them in giving you two shore bombardments and annoying the British to no end.
If not, or it is unfeasible to accomplish the attack on Gibraltar, just leave the transport with you and hope you have the firepower to kill the fleet in SZ 110 and enough airpower to take London.
Remember, however, after England falls, the desperate need for your aircraft carrier drops significantly. I would be inclined to take two hits on the carrier right off if England had a large enough force in SZ 110, thus giving myself that 1 extra hit on a unit with an attack value!
You also have to worry about whether or not to take Scotland. If the American/British navy gets into SZ 109 and you cannot clear it, you’ll lose 6 IPC from England and you might give America 2 IPC for liberating Scotland and lose 2 IPC for taking it back (to deny America position) in convoy damage there too!
It is one of the reasons people are beginning to chatter about abandoning England and setting up for a counter attack later in the game.
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@Cmdr:
If I plan for Sea Lion (and that is the topic of the thread, so let’s assume I do) I would go Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer, Submarine.
Now, if your attacks went average or well, on Germany 2 you can put 10 transports in the water (11 total on the board.)
10 Transports on G2? How do you accomplish this with only the Naval Bases on W. Germany and Normandy with no Naval Base build on G1?
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I just buy a carrier rest trans for G1. Then G2 i drop in scotland. should have enough naval to defend it, if I dont oh well buy all trans. body slam r3 or or or or
drop everything scotland r3. then r4 pick up / drop uk. done deal.
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You don’t need a naval base to build a fleet, simply a factory.
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You don’t need a naval base to build a fleet, simply a factory.
….sigh. Our group has been playing with the notion that airbases and naval bases produce up to 3 of that kind. Good lord epic fail. So only minors and majors can produce units? :roll:
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Yes. Minor Complexes can be build on land worth at least 2 IPC and produce a maximum of 3 units per round, starting on the turn after it was built. Major Complexes are the same, except they build a maximum of 10 units a round and require territory worth 3 IPC or more. In Alpha 2, Major complexes can only be built on territories that are your countries color. (ie, England in Malaya, Germany in Romania, France in S. France, etc.)
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@Cmdr:
If I plan for Sea Lion (and that is the topic of the thread, so let’s assume I do) I would go Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer, Submarine.
Why?
The Carrier and Destroyer along with scrambled fighters from Hamburg, Germany (W. Germany) should be more than enough to stop England from sinking your fleet.
The Submarine is insurance against the England NO for no German submarines on the Atlantic board. I have, on more than one occasion, lost every starting submarine I had without killing a single dang British ship outside of SZ 111 (because I overwhelm it with half a dozen planes and a pair of submarines, survival for England would require a reboot of the universe.)I also assume the following:
- Bulgaria absorbed
- Finland absorbed
- Normandy/W. France taken
- France Taken
- Yugoslavia taken
This should give Germany 70 IPC to spend on Round 2.
Now, if your attacks went average or well, on Germany 2 you can put 10 transports in the water (11 total on the board.) If England went into the Med to deny Italy the NO there, take Gibraltar with one transport and lock them in giving you two shore bombardments and annoying the British to no end.
If not, or it is unfeasible to accomplish the attack on Gibraltar, just leave the transport with you and hope you have the firepower to kill the fleet in SZ 110 and enough airpower to take London.
Remember, however, after England falls, the desperate need for your aircraft carrier drops significantly. I would be inclined to take two hits on the carrier right off if England had a large enough force in SZ 110, thus giving myself that 1 extra hit on a unit with an attack value!
You also have to worry about whether or not to take Scotland. If the American/British navy gets into SZ 109 and you cannot clear it, you’ll lose 6 IPC from England and you might give America 2 IPC for liberating Scotland and lose 2 IPC for taking it back (to deny America position) in convoy damage there too!
It is one of the reasons people are beginning to chatter about abandoning England and setting up for a counter attack later in the game.
Excellent opening analysis for a G3 Sealion, Jen- my thoughts precisely.
Along this opening line is the G4 Sealion (Scotland) and the Fake Sealion.
Other German openings include Barbarossa and what I call Delayed Barborossa.
The Japanese have openings of their own, however, it is wise to coordinate with your German player your intentions so that you can maximize imbalances that have ripple effects across the globe (this is what makes the game complex). Realize that Japan did not do this in the real war- one of the reasons why they lost.
…Then of course there is the almighty bid. :wink:
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I believe the idea behind G4 Sea Lion is to ensure you prepare adequate defenses against Russia. If Japan violates the NAP, all Germany has to do is hold Baltic States, Bessarabia and E. Poland (to prevent Russia from getting NOs for Europe territories).
Assuming you own the Atlantic, putting a submarine in SZ 125 will stop Russia from collecting more than the 1 NO for taking Norway (if you let them take it.) Eventually, Russia will have to send something back against Japan and then it’s a matter of getting a strength so Germany and Japan weaken and Italy takes Moscow. (Hey, you gotta figure Germany has Karelia and Stalingrad so Italy is the one that needs the complex the most, right?)
Just my opinion, never actually went the G4 route, but it does seem to be more secure and does not commit you as readily. (You can go 50/50 tranny/military two rounds instead of 100% tranny one round.)
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I’m on board with a G3 sealion, but then for the Germans to turn and fight Russia while still covering their backs in the Atlantic? For me I have struggled with an experienced American player, does Germany maybe play defense against the Russians and be aggressive towards the Americans along with the Italians? (i know its about off topic, sorry).
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Having failed to focus on the Atlantic after the fall of Moscow, I think Germany should focus on submarines to keep America away. At the very best, 13 submarines down by America would effectively kill their production capacity.
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G4 sea lion occurs when germany is feeling very conservative… and wants to ensure victory.
G3 you drop all your guys on scotland. G4 you pick up off europe and drop on UK.
G4 is all troop buy… I can see a tactical bomber in the mix if you can fill the boats you already have.
So you should effectively have 20-26 units + air… plus whatever is still alive in scotland.
G4 is not that bad actually. you do suffer a shitload less casualties most of the time. -
@Cow:
G4 sea lion occurs when germany is feeling very conservative… and wants to ensure victory.
G3 you drop all your guys on scotland. G4 you pick up off europe and drop on UK.
G4 is all troop buy… I can see a tactical bomber in the mix if you can fill the boats you already have.
So you should effectively have 20-26 units + air… plus whatever is still alive in scotland.
G4 is not that bad actually. you do suffer a shitload less casualties most of the time.Cow is right, I’ve done both G3 and G4 before- though in Alpha +1. In Alpha +2, G4 seems a little easier and G3 seems a little harder. in G4, You will lose a couple of German tts but you will get them back later. You get the cash and the takeover, but Russia is able to sustain itself longer. And yes Japan would have to put pressure on US for sure.
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G4 is more definite, but if you came out of G1 relatively unscathed, G3 is pretty definite as well and gives you more cash earlier. (you’ll get an extra 5 IPC for the extra round holding London and you get the British Treasury a round earlier. This does not take into consideration units you won’t lose due to British return fire on newly purchased guys.)
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Gamblers do G3. G4 is for people who prefer the sure shot.
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Mantlefan- yes that extra plane buy in Brit makes all the difference a lot of times- good point (punch count proves it- don’t have the numbers on me though)
Jenn- right again, you must monitor G1 and G2 then decide.
Cow- Very true
We really have to play these opening further down into the rounds to get more of an overall feel still…
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If Britain is willing to give up the Med, G-anything becomes a very difficult operation. I guess the benefit of taking the UK out of the game (in Europe atleast) can be worth the risk, but, I’m not sold on the concept.
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Play tested against who? I’m free for a forum game or two if you want to explore the merits of a Sea Lion attempt, I doubt you’ll win 88% of the time. I’ve looked at the odds, and I just dont believe it’s such a given. I think play testers might have caught on to that. Granted you do have to let Italy run a bit wild, but, if you have to Choose between London and Cairo, you choose London.
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No, what I don’t realize is what is attacking to clear the Brit navy? You do know that scrambling is optional, right? If I dont like the odds, I save my fighters, then what is guarding your own transports? I don’t feel the need to argue endlessly, so we can just say we disagree, though, once again, I’m not above finding out if this works or not thru a forum game or two.
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I use UK’s naval to fight italy. I even bring the pacific fleet in. hell yes.
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So wait, Mantle, what you are saying is that you sacrifice the Battleboat and attack SZ 111, SZ 112 and SZ 110 on Germany 1? ~ bit confused, sorry. I love the idea of sinking both British battleboats before people like Cow can use them to aggrevate my Italian cruise liners (I will call them warships when they ACT LIKE WARSHIPS!)
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