Thanks, I’ll check it out.
Japanese Strategy
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@Cmdr:
Anyway, no, you cannot upgrade an Industrial on foreign territory to a major either, if you own the land and it isnt “your” land (colored on the map for you) then you cannot have a major complex on it no matter what.
You can’t upgrade a minor IC on foreign soil, even if it was a Major IC before you took it. I mean, you can’t do that with Alpha 1 and 2, but you could do it with OOB.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. I guess my opponent and I will have to revise our purchases. ;)
Thanks for the quick reply! Didn’t even have a chance to log off! :lol:
~MadPup~
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You can logoff???
lol
Anyway, yea, that was a nice rule. The whole idea of an Allied major on Europe proper is rather unsettling when one considers just how much the American’s earn per round. (I’d like to see that removed actually, give them 30 IPC for having Guam, Hawaii, Midway, the Alutians and the Philippines and not for having the 48 Contiguous United States…and dropping it to 10 isnt enough, IMHO. It can stay 30, because if Japan cannot manage to get at least ONE chain, Japan’s being run very badly. At least early in the game.)
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It’s my understanding that if Japan attacks UK\ANZAC the US is free to declare war against all axis forces. That seems suicidal as the US immediately gets upgraded IC’s and a huge NO boost to income, Germany\Italy need those first 3 rounds of US neutrality. Japan really has no choice but to concentrate on China until at least round 3 or UK\ANZAC declares war. IMHO.
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I concur, Especially since the Japanese get 10 IPC’s for not going to war, that helps subsidize the cost of not going to war. In the theatre game only it makes total sense to go to war turn 1. But if Japan attacks turn 1, then they are writing a death sentence for Italy.
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@Emperor:
Japan really has no choice but to concentrate on China until at least round 3
This is true, and not true…
@Cmdr:
I seriously wonder if China is worth it. Combined I think it’s 1 Victory City, 23 IPC (not including Hong Kong and Korea.) Wouldn’t it be possible to hold some of the more important land, yield the lesser stuff and position for a stronger attack on ANZAC/East India territories? It guals me seeing England/ANZAC getting the NO for all those islands (and the income) without really being able to do much against them.
I think china is worth it, but not all of it. Send a few men here and there, just to keep them on the down low. Focus most of your Transport men/art/tanks on India, and ANZAC. Like I said before, a minor factory, and 3 tanks a turn does a lot in that area. Yes that 18 IPCs, but still if you do the job right, you end up earning 60-70 IPCs a round.
Now I think that you should spend those 3 turns preparing mostly for the invasion of India and/or ANZAC.
As I have said before, that Minor IC in Shanghai does wonders for me.
But if Japan attacks turn 1, then they are writing a death sentence for Italy.
How so for Italy??? Italy is already at war with UK. Unless this is changed in Alpha rules??
(I use OOB rules)
~MadPup~
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US is in then
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Background: This post is in response to the Alpha 2 rules. I have set up the board but not played it. I am aware of the number of pieces added and moved compared to the Out Of Box (OOB) placement for which I have many games played regarding the Pacific Theater.
I agree with Jennifer that Australia can be an area of focus early on. I disagree with believing China is not worth it. I have ignored China to my peril. When playing Japan I select from 1 of the following 2 strategies:
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India first with an early drive on China, secure south pacific islands and focus on Hawaii or Australia last for the win.
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Cripple Australia first (staging on Caroline Islands) sweep to the south pacific islands choke off India and use minor factories to hold mainland victory cities. Capture Hawaii and Australia for the win, leaving India and W.US as the only allied cities.
I believe Japan has been given plenty of Infantry on mainland Asia to drive China into a manageable box, if not take them out. Many people have put forward the best ways to take India first, so I will focus on option 2, and address Jennifer’s desired approach. I believe this is a harder approach to victory, but a viable choice.
This theory-craft is not tested, but is loosely based on other experiences, it is not my intent to make a blanket statement or imply certain success. Care should be taken when employing any strategy that is not well understood ,executed, or proven successful. Reader discretion is advised.
An early key to crippling Anzac is the 2 starting subs Japan begins the game with. I would suggest a starting purchase of 2 subs and 2 transports in addition to your starting fleet. I suspect you will want to keep the US neutral for 3 turns, so Anzac will have the opportunity to expand, however their NO’s are tied to being at war, so they are likely to collect them once as Japan will be poised to cripple their economy swiftly.
From Caroline Islands, subs can reach convoy zones off of New South wales and Queensland. 3 subs will see Anzac brought to 5 IPCs, with 3 transports, New Zealand, W. Australia, and new Britain will remove 3 more IPCs and all NOs. Philippines, Celebes Islands and Java are all in range of Caroline Islands as well. By staging 6 or more transports loaded with units on Caroline Islands, Anzac will be forced to build land units and keep them in New South Wales.
Turn 1, the whole fleet should be moved to Caroline Islands and Paulau(ships that can’t make Caroline). This threat of a turn 2 assault should keep Anzac from building navy. So to summarize on turn 3 or 4, when Japan spreads out from Caroline, Australia will be brought to 2 IPCs(+2 if they have Brazil), they get 3 if they manage to retake W. Australia. Taking New Britain keeps Anzac from having its island chain and original territories NO.
Staging the whole fleet on the Carolines will see the US pull its fleet back to W. US in all likelihood unless they are going Japan first. If New south wales can be taken with Hawaii by turn 7, you should still hold your starting cities and have a win.
Remember transports built in Japan can help you take Phillippines back from UK or in seizing Hawaii. If Anzac builds 3 units a turn, they will have 18 land units plus allied planes on turn 4. In theory, you can have your air force on Caroline by turn 3. They can land on New Zealand turn 4 if you capture it on turn 3 (grab Northwest territory or W. Australia too on turn 4 when you land air force), giving you range to hit New south wales with your whole air force and land on W or N. Australia by turn 5. (a few planes can be kept on Caroline to protect transports if they land on carriers off New South Wales). 3-6 loaded transports with your air force should be enough to take it on round 5 if this plan works. If you are not ready to take on turn 5 due to other air power needs, you will have choked off Anzacs wealth.
I envision most of Japan’s builds being transports and land units maybe 1 or 2 complexes, India could go navy early on, but should not be able to destroy Japan’s fleet. China will be fought with starting pieces, ignoring Russia will free up 12 more land units to drive on China with.
Just some food for thought. Comments anyone?
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Background: This post is in response to the Alpha 2 rules. I have set up the board but not played it. I am aware of the number of pieces added and moved compared to the Out Of Box (OOB) placement for which I have many games played regarding the Pacific Theater.
I agree with Jennifer that Australia can be an area of focus early on. I disagree with believing China is not worth it. I have ignored China to my peril. When playing Japan I select from 1 of the following 2 strategies:
-
India first with an early drive on China, secure south pacific islands and focus on Hawaii or Australia last for the win.
-
Cripple Australia first (staging on Caroline Islands) sweep to the south pacific islands choke off India and use minor factories to hold mainland victory cities. Capture Hawaii and Australia for the win, leaving India and W.US as the only allied cities.
I believe Japan has been given plenty of Infantry on mainland Asia to drive China into a manageable box, if not take them out. Many people have put forward the best ways to take India first, so I will focus on option 2, and address Jennifer’s desired approach. I believe this is a harder approach to victory, but a viable choice.
This theory-craft is not tested, but is loosely based on other experiences, it is not my intent to make a blanket statement or imply certain success. Care should be taken when employing any strategy that is not well understood ,executed, or proven successful. Reader discretion is advised.
An early key to crippling Anzac is the 2 starting subs Japan begins the game with. I would suggest a starting purchase of 2 subs and 2 transports in addition to your starting fleet. I suspect you will want to keep the US neutral for 3 turns, so Anzac will have the opportunity to expand, however their NO’s are tied to being at war, so they are likely to collect them once as Japan will be poised to cripple their economy swiftly.
From Caroline Islands, subs can reach convoy zones off of New South wales and Queensland. 3 subs will see Anzac brought to 5 IPCs, with 3 transports, New Zealand, W. Australia, and new Britain will remove 3 more IPCs and all NOs. Philippines, Celebes Islands and Java are all in range of Caroline Islands as well. By staging 6 or more transports loaded with units on Caroline Islands, Anzac will be forced to build land units and keep them in New South Wales.
Turn 1, the whole fleet should be moved to Caroline Islands and Paulau(ships that can’t make Caroline). This threat of a turn 2 assault should keep Anzac from building navy. So to summarize on turn 3 or 4, when Japan spreads out from Caroline, Australia will be brought to 2 IPCs(+2 if they have Brazil), they get 3 if they manage to retake W. Australia. Taking New Britain keeps Anzac from having its island chain and original territories NO.
Staging the whole fleet on the Carolines will see the US pull its fleet back to W. US in all likelihood unless they are going Japan first. If New south wales can be taken with Hawaii by turn 7, you should still hold your starting cities and have a win.
Remember transports built in Japan can help you take Phillippines back from UK or in seizing Hawaii. If Anzac builds 3 units a turn, they will have 18 land units plus allied planes on turn 4. In theory, you can have your air force on Caroline by turn 3. They can land on New Zealand turn 4 if you capture it on turn 3 (grab Northwest territory or W. Australia too on turn 4 when you land air force), giving you range to hit New south wales with your whole air force and land on W or N. Australia by turn 5. (a few planes can be kept on Caroline to protect transports if they land on carriers off New South Wales). 3-6 loaded transports with your air force should be enough to take it on round 5 if this plan works. If you are not ready to take on turn 5 due to other air power needs, you will have choked off Anzacs wealth.
I envision most of Japan’s builds being transports and land units maybe 1 or 2 complexes, India could go navy early on, but should not be able to destroy Japan’s fleet. China will be fought with starting pieces, ignoring Russia will free up 12 more land units to drive on China with.
Just some food for thought. Comments anyone?
The Turn 1 buildup at Carolines sounds interesting, what would be your J1 Build and plans for reinforcing China, even with decent dice you will lose ground units. Isn’t closing and keeping closed the Burma road a high priority?
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I am not by any means a pro, but my humble observation is that the single most important objective for Japan is securing the DEI turn 3.
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I am not by any means a pro, but my humble observation is that the single most important objective for Japan is securing the DEI turn 3.
But if you take DEI turn 3, US can declare war beginning of Turn 3 instead of end of turn 3, with the new turn order (US follows Japan), you expose not only the pacific but Europe. Italy doesn’t get to go until all the Western Allies (Except useless France) finish their turn.
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I think you underestimate the power of china. IF played properly China with a little help from India can easily overwhellm Japans starting units by turn 4 or 5. Then the US would have to be playing very poorly for your idea to work. The US should have an equal or greater navy than Japan by turn 5 or 6. Easily there in time to sit off Hawaii and threaten a good deal of Japans recent conquests.
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In our current game started yesterday I am playing the axis. We completed three rounds only because of lack of time. The Japanese are taking most of China and have taken one half of the DEI as well as the Philippines. Because of the Japanese having a large task force in the DEI area I have started to build up the navy in zone 6 as well. Expect to have most of China and all of DEI after round four to be played monday. It is important for Japan to have this income as well as building the navy in zone 6 because the U.S. will be coming. During the first three rounds the Indian navy has pulled back and the Soviets have not threatened Manchuria. Japan must keep adding to its navy in order to survive. The U.S. put a lot of assets into the Atlantic so they are not putting a lot of pressure on Japan in the Pacific. But with that huge income they will be coming!
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By “ignore China” I am more thinking along the lines of not heavily investing in China with the mindset to conquer the entire country - as I suspect most people play.
The 2 submarine, 2 transport open sounds very interesting.
Perhaps staging the fleet off the coast of Siam might be a very viable option. The Carolines are nice, but I worry being that close to America’s fleet. Of course, if you pound Australia taking their capitol on Round 3, you would be far enough from the American fleet to negate them on Round 3.
I’ll have to think on it. Certain things appeal to me (the surprise factor for the first time you do it) the position of the ships. Certain things worry me (having the attack forseen and countered before launched, having the fleet at a rather far distance from Tokyo…)
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Regarding my Australia first proposal, this is my plan for Asia:
Asia is not ignored, but as Jennifer stated, is not heavily invested in. When I stated that the starting forces should be able to manage China, the purpose was to concentrate forces in a few areas, trading vital objectives to slow China for the purpose of buying time (cheaply) to secure a mid game win. (turn 7-9)
One fact I noticed about the alpha 2 setup is that each Japanese held Chinese territory has at least 1 artillery on it:
Manchuria: 6 Infantry, 1 Mech Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 AA Gun, 2 Fighters, 2 Tac Bombers
Kiangsi: 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Shantung: 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Kwangsi: 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Jehol: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Siam: 2 Infantry *
Kiangsu: 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter, 1 Tac Bomber.
Korea: 4 Infantry, 1 Fighter *- are Japanese owned and controlled regions
This breaks down to 26 infantry, 6 artillery, and 1 mech for a total of 33 units vs China’s 16 land units.
Lets assume China collects: 15, 12, 9, 9 (based on Japan trading Yunnan assumes China retakes each round)
China then produces at best 15 more units for a total of 31 land units vs 33 Japanese seems tight like you can manage China for at least the first 4 turns, before retreating to your victory cities. Granted India can lend units by declaring war early, this would affect your time table for containment.Here is a detailed plan for the first 4 turns in Asia: I=infantry,A=artillery,M=Mechanized Infantry:
Turn 1 goals: Korea(4I) moves to Manchuria, Manchuria(6I,1A) to Jehol, Jehol (2I,1A) to Chahar, Shantung(3I,1A) and Kiangsu(3I,1A) and Manchuria (1M) to Anhwe, Kiangsi(3I,1A) and Kwangsi(1I) to Hunan(2I), Kwansi (2I,1A) to Yunnan(4I) Use air round 1 to help, land in range of Japan for turn 2 move, then Caroline turn 3.
Turn 2 goals: Manchuria(4I) to Jehol, Chahar(2I,1A) to Suiyuyan, , Jehol(6I,1A) to Anhwe, Anhwe(1I,1M) to Hopei, Anhwe(5I,2A) to Kweichow, Hunan(2-3I,1A) to Yunnan(2-3I). Use 2 Bombers maybe, if you don’t think they will be needed in Australia turn 5. Build Minor factory in Kiangsu.
Turn 3 goals: Jehol(4I) to Anhwe, Suiyuyan(2I,1A) to Kansu, Hopie(1I,1M) to Shensi, Kwechichow(5I,2A) to Szchewhan, Anhwe(6I,1A) to Kiangsi (these units are earmarked for Kwantung round 4 or retaking/reinforcing Kiangsu depending on India play)
Turn 4 goals: Anhwe(4I) to Kiangsu to defend factory or Kweichow if not needed, Kansu (2I,1A) to Tsinghai, Shensi(1I,1M) to Sikang, Kiangsi(1-6I,0-1A) to Kwangtung (need to take in force for city sake). Produce 2 mech and 1 armor for Kiangsu if needed, else 3 mech.Obviously, this does not take into account your opponents responses. Planned play may vary based on individual game’s needs. Reader discretion is advised. Problem areas turn 3, could be India involvement and China stacking in Szchewhan.
Out of pocket expenses for above, 12IPC turn 2, 9IPC turn 3, 14IPCs turn 4(minor factory,3 infantry, and 2mech/1tank) for a total spent of 35 IPCs. You could use transport instead depending on the pacific seas threats.
I believe that leaves Japan with enough income for Australia….just some more ideas to chew on. This is not a blanket statement of implied success, just a proposal on how you could contest Asia and keep China from ballooning too soon.
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With the penalty for attacking Japan and the massive increase in defensive ability of Korea, I think I can see this being plausible.
Do not forget that Japan lost a transport in the Carolines in Alpha. Makes a HUGE difference, for once, you cannot take Hawaii on J1 anymore! lol.
I do enjoy the idea of hitting ANZAC hard on J2 or J3. For one, it changes it from the Allies having 5 nations between Japan and Italy to do to 4 nations. ^_^ Also, its cash. Lets face it, with a reasonable sized Japanese navy around Australia, it is going to take some serious Allied aggression to liberate and with the extra income from minor China attacks, Australia and the southern Islands, maybe Japan can hold against a way too strong America.
I am still pondering a J1 jump on America. It might liberate England/Anzac too much I am not sure.
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@Cmdr:
I am still pondering a J1 jump on America. It might liberate England/Anzac too much I am not sure.
I am probably best know for my crazy America first plans (Operation Hollywood dates back to revised). I’m guessing that’s why they changed the rules to permit US declaration of war if you are in Canada :)
With alpha knocking down the US to building a max of 27 pieces the first 3 rounds (unless they pay to upgrade minor factories) I will be drafting a US first approach. OOB it was possible to take Alberta with Germany and land the whole Jap airfoce for the purpose of getting to Europe by turn 4 or 5…can’t remember.
It might be worth throwing Japan, Italy and Germany at the US if they can be taken out by turn 5…would be a tough game since China, Anzac, India and Russia would get large fast.
London would be contained with the 9 German transports off Gibraltar. So I do not see them getting into it by turn 4.
But this is a topic for another thread.
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@Cmdr:
By “ignore China” I am more thinking along the lines of not heavily investing in China with the mindset to conquer the entire country - as I suspect most people play.
The 2 submarine, 2 transport open sounds very interesting.
Perhaps staging the fleet off the coast of Siam might be a very viable option. The Carolines are nice, but I worry being that close to America’s fleet. Of course, if you pound Australia taking their capitol on Round 3, you would be far enough from the American fleet to negate them on Round 3.
I’ll have to think on it. Certain things appeal to me (the surprise factor for the first time you do it) the position of the ships. Certain things worry me (having the attack forseen and countered before launched, having the fleet at a rather far distance from Tokyo…)
If you take a large portion of the Japanese fleet more than one move from zone 6 then you must continue to add to the fleet in zone 6 with each purchase. If Japan puts all its resources into China and India then the U.S. will eventually overwhelm the axis in the Pacific. The Japanese must try to catch the U.S. fleet in a zone where they cannot be supported and then destroy them. I have seen this happen more than once. This will buy the axis time in the Pacfic as the U.S. will have to rebuild.
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Note, on Round 1 there is literally nothing that can hit the Japanese fleet in SZ 6 so, in a hypthetical situation, Japan would be safe in purchasing transports on Round 1 and sending all their ships to other points on the board.
Of course, if Russia moves her fighters eastward, instead of the more traditional westward, there is a chance you might need to move a carrier/battleship or something up to SZ 6 to protect the transports against Unprovoked Russian Hegemony, but I do not see this being the case in most games.
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If you take a large portion of the Japanese fleet more than one move from zone 6 then you must continue to add to the fleet in zone 6 with each purchase. If Japan puts all its resources into China and India then the U.S. will eventually overwhelm the axis in the Pacific. The Japanese must try to catch the U.S. fleet in a zone where they cannot be supported and then destroy them. I have seen this happen more than once. This will buy the axis time in the Pacfic as the U.S. will have to rebuild.
You won’t need to add to the fleet until America enters the war. By using implied threat, (staging navy in Carolines) you prevent a fleet build up at Hawaii. Making sea zone 6 two moves from W. US.
Even when you spread out, you can keep your fleet in Caroline and only leave Caroline the turn you invade New South Wales(and even then you may only send carriers to land planes)…this could mean sacrificing unescorted transports. By keeping your fleet “cocked like a crossbow” you threaten many areas at once, and only fail to do so if your opponent forces you to pull the trigger. Hence you can leverage your opponent into doing things they don’t want to. That is were position and tactics can succeed where units can fail.
The purpose of the 4 sub Jap fleet is to make them immune from air strikes…Anzac will likely have 1 DD that you wish to destroy when you declare war as Japan. But even if you don’t…you have an extra sub that can trade with the DD once it is “fired” or used.
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@Cmdr:
Note, on Round 1 there is literally nothing that can hit the Japanese fleet in SZ 6 so, in a hypthetical situation, Japan would be safe in purchasing transports on Round 1 and sending all their ships to other points on the board.
Of course, if Russia moves her fighters eastward, instead of the more traditional westward, there is a chance you might need to move a carrier/battleship or something up to SZ 6 to protect the transports against Unprovoked Russian Hegemony, but I do not see this being the case in most games.
Yes, I move a large portion of my Japanese fleet built around two carriers towards the DEI on round 1. But you will notice in my photo that after round 3 I have three fully loaded carriers in zone 6 or within range of zone 6. Then I have the option of moving the force in the DEI further west if needed. In this current game the U.S. is not putting a lot of pressure on Japan yet. If the U.S. spent all its income in the Pacific starting round 1 then this would change everything.
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