Sea Lion A Success!!

[calvinhobbesliker]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@jim010:

I will no longer play allies without a bid.  Otherwise I want Axis.

Period.

This not just based on a few games online, but a few weekends playing round robins at a gaming store here.

Just Europe or Global?

Also, I assume you play on after London falls, right?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I would rather not loose my london to sealion but if it does fall doesnt the complex in london turn into a minor complex in europe like it does in global?

I think england is a fun and challenging country to play

[jim010]

I have played on.  Just finished a game here.  I think I now have the right mix for hitting London for a 90% win with survival rate of 10 + units.  Plus the $81 I got to spend and the BB, CR, CV, fht, tac and 5 sb in sz109.  The TTs in sz110 to take the units off London to hit Russia.

I’m still tinkering with it, but if I can get it to play this this most of the time, I want a bid.

I haven’t played global, and I likely won’t until I am sure as to how AAE40 plays out.  Can’t comment there.  But 2 axis advantaged games put together?

Besides, I’m waiting on Larry’s “fixed” set-up for AAP40.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@jim010:

I have played on.  Just finished a game here.  I think I now have the right mix for hitting London for a 90% win with survival rate of 10 + units.  Plus the $81 I got to spend and the BB, CR, CV, fht, tac and 5 sb in sz109.  The TTs in sz110 to take the units off London to hit Russia.

I’m still tinkering with it, but if I can get it to play this this most of the time, I want a bid.

I haven’t played global, and I likely won’t until I am sure as to how AAE40 plays out.  Can’t comment there.  But 2 axis advantaged games put together?

Besides, I’m waiting on Larry’s “fixed” set-up for AAP40.

Well Global has 18 Russian inf and 9 Russian ipc’s that are not in either version.

[jim010]

doesnt the complex in london turn into a minor complex in europe

Only in global.

How about if UK sees a German CV hit the water, conscription is immediately enforced and 5 extra inf pop up in London.

I’d accept that.

[jim010]

Again, I can’t comment on global. I’ll have to wait until I have a few games under my belt.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@jim010:

doesnt the complex in london turn into a minor complex in europe

Only in global.

How about if UK sees a German CV hit the water, conscription is immediately enforced and 5 extra inf pop up in London.

I’d accept that.

And that major to minor transformation helps in Global, as it also affects Paris

[robbie358]

The trick is really that if Germany focuses on Sea Lion, there’s nothing the Brits can do about it, but if they do, then it gives Russia another 2 turns to build and therefore they have a freaking ton of guys.  So doing the Sea Lion invasion makes an invasion of Russia (almost) impossible.
If Germany doesn’t do the Sea Lion thing, Russia falls ALOT easier, but it keeps the UK in the game at least.  Either way the Allies are screwed, but it comes down to the dice most often times late in the game.  I’d say Axis-slanted, but not by much.
A bid does not help at all.  A few more infantry in UK means that Germany goes all-in on Russia, and a few more infantry in Russia means Germany goes all in on UK.

This is just an initial opinion, and I’d like to play a few more games before trying to come up with a fix.

[Tavenier]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Tavenier:

In all previous versions we played with the houserule that when a capital is taken the victim must pay the IPC value of that country to the conquerer, but keeps the rest and keeps getting income. Then the UK can still build in Canada, or somewhere.

With this version however, Germany needs the IPC from capturing Paris and France can’t be allowed to keep building elsewhere (Normandy or a conquered neutral).

In our houserule a succesful sealion doens’t mean the end of the allies. Here it does.

Sure about that? Even with a 65 ipc US and a 30 ipc Russia against a 60-70 ipc Germany and a 30 ipc Italy? Seems about equal.

Yes. The USA won’t have a staging ground for their troops and Germany has way less ground to cover with coastal defense. And having the UK as a sub pen is incredibly powerful.
But apart from that, the most important reason is that the Axis start with a way larger army. If both sides have an equal amount of cash the allies are doomed. They won’t outproduce the axis to make up for their fewer battle equipment. And the Americans can’t invest all in inf or tanks, like Germany, but have to build transport and a lot of destroyers to transport those troops safely to Europe/Africa.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Tavenier:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Tavenier:

In all previous versions we played with the houserule that when a capital is taken the victim must pay the IPC value of that country to the conquerer, but keeps the rest and keeps getting income. Then the UK can still build in Canada, or somewhere.

With this version however, Germany needs the IPC from capturing Paris and France can’t be allowed to keep building elsewhere (Normandy or a conquered neutral).

In our houserule a succesful sealion doens’t mean the end of the allies. Here it does.

Sure about that? Even with a 65 ipc US and a 30 ipc Russia against a 60-70 ipc Germany and a 30 ipc Italy? Seems about equal.

Yes. The USA won’t have a staging ground for their troops and Germany has way less ground to cover with coastal defense. And having the UK as a sub pen is incredibly powerful.
But apart from that, the most important reason is that the Axis start with a way larger army. If both sides have an equal amount of cash the allies are doomed. They won’t outproduce the axis to make up for their fewer battle equipment. And the Americans can’t invest all in inf or tanks, like Germany, but have to build transport and a lot of destroyers to transport those troops safely to Europe/Africa.

Buy if Germany builds navy turn 1 and 2 and inf in London turn 3, I think Russia will have a close to equal army by then

[Clyde85]

@robbie358:

I don’t know how they crush my fleet when they can’t get into the Baltic…

If you dont leave the baltic, how are you going to contest Landings on the British mainland? Given what you said you have, I think its a pretty weak fleet, and a larger allies fleet, which you indicate they have by the damage being done to Italy, would sink you.

[robbie358]

@Clyde85:

If you dont leave the baltic, how are you going to contest Landings on the British mainland? Given what you said you have, I think its a pretty weak fleet, and a larger allies fleet, which you indicate they have by the damage being done to Italy, would sink you.

First off, why would I ever have to?  I have a major complex in London, so I just build up infantry every turn until it’s untakable… (I know that’s not a word).  So the US liberates London, and UK gets to collect it’s income on the next turn.  They don’t actually get to place anything until a turn after (3 turns now), and all UK territories that the US currently has in Africa go to the UK instead.  The next turn they can actually do something with the new units (turn 4).  Seems like I should have Moscow by then.

Second, if they do that it removes the threat to Italy, so why would the Italians not waste their whole air force (5 fighters, 4 tac bombers) on an attack on the US fleet that is trying to block my transports from getting out of the Baltic?

All of this is pure delaying actions while I throw 77 bucks a turn into Russia (6 inf, 6 art, 3 tanks, 1 bomber, 5 left over), while I bombing the hell out of his Moscow complex and he’s therefore maybe getting 5-6 infantry a turn total.  Game Over.

[Guest]

Call me a sceptic but I smell a lot of braggin’ :lol:

But hey, that’s fun to do :-D

[Clyde85]

@robbie358:

First off, why would I ever have to?  I have a major complex in London, so I just build up infantry every turn until it’s untakable… (I know that’s not a word).  So the US liberates London, and UK gets to collect it’s income on the next turn.  They don’t actually get to place anything until a turn after (3 turns now), and all UK territories that the US currently has in Africa go to the UK instead.  The next turn they can actually do something with the new units (turn 4).  Seems like I should have Moscow by then.
Second, if they do that it removes the threat to Italy, so why would the Italians not waste their whole air force (5 fighters, 4 tac bombers) on an attack on the US fleet that is trying to block my transports from getting out of the Baltic? 
All of this is pure delaying actions while I throw 77 bucks a turn into Russia (6 inf, 6 art, 3 tanks, 1 bomber, 5 left over), while I bombing the hell out of his Moscow complex and he’s therefore maybe getting 5-6 infantry a turn total.  Game Over.

Look, you asked for peoples opinions on weather or not we thought you had the allies beat, and most people here dont seem to think you did. Dont ask for peoples opinions and then argue with them when they give you responses that arent to your liking. Also, whats the point of having a fleet if your never going to move it out to fight? Who is going to threaten you in the baltic that you would even need a fleet there in the first place?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

As america i am perfectly content staging my navy and landing forces in nkrth africa. Gibralter has a naval base so you can threaten everything from norway to italy.

Still i would rather not loose england.  Havent lost it yet.  Are you all as Germany able to hold it from repeated american landings of maybe five or six full transports?

The turn order is wrong for germany to make 25 bucks a round for retaking london.

I play global mostly though. Sorry if there are differences in turn order.

[questioneer]

My question is…what is the solution to the SeaLion attack.  It seems mathematically solid and it IS a problem.  Scripted Sealion is bad for the game whether the Axis succeed after G3 or not.

My solution is just to add 2 inf to London on the setup.  Germany can still do Sealion but it is more risky to do so.
What would that make it?  a 30% chance versus a 70% chance???

[RedHunter]

@Tavenier:

In all previous versions we played with the houserule that when a capital is taken the victim must pay the IPC value of that country to the conquerer, but keeps the rest and keeps getting income. Then the UK can still build in Canada, or somewhere.

With this version however, Germany needs the IPC from capturing Paris and France can’t be allowed to keep building elsewhere (Normandy or a conquered neutral).

In our houserule a succesful sealion doens’t mean the end of the allies. Here it does.

Not really America is more then capable of taking back the UK…and if Germany builds to stop America that really really really helps the Russian player. And chances are even if they build to stop America they will fail anyway. Unless you can take Russia in 2-3 turns which if the Russian player has any skill at all you can’t.

[Panz3r L3ad3r]

I would not bother you in your discussions…
but it is just a my opinion…
Sealion is totally impossible with an experienced allied player.
An experienced uk player can 'easily avoid and defeat all the German strategies.
There is more…
preparing sealion it’s a waste of time against the americans and russian supposing you will not declare war on russia during preparations for sealion.

bye

[RedHunter]

@Panz3r:

I would not bother you in your discussions…
but it is just a my opinion…
Sealion is totally impossible with an experienced allied player.
An experienced uk player can 'easily avoid and defeat all the German strategies.
There is more…
preparing sealion it’s a waste of time against the americans and russian supposing you will not declare war on russia during preparations for sealion.

bye

Sorry Germany can wipe England’s fleet and there is nothing England can do about it since Germany moves first. They can take England however holding it aganist American counter attacks down the road is another story.

[Panz3r L3ad3r]

But destroy the english fleet doesn’t mean that the British can not do anything
they can build infantries

first english turn 7 inf 2 art

second turn 7 inf 2 art

2 inf e 3 fight there are in uk from the first turn

german on third turn (the first turn available to make operation sea lion) is strong enough to destroy

16 inf 4 art 3fighter?

more…

on third turn the american player is on the sea zone 103 ready to land unit…

and the russian are undistrurbed.

don’t know… sorry but i still don’t see how  :mrgreen: