@Bunnies:
OK, here’s some thoughts:
1. I grab Africa by sending units via Brazil. Your fighter counter requires carrier support or LOTS of fighters. If you send LOTS of fighters, then UK’s free in the north, and I don’t just suicide with the U.S. Atlantic assets either!
My Allied move, regardless of what the Germans do, is to send the 2 starting transports to land on Algeria. Later, if more units are necessary I usually have a large enough US fleet to land more units there without any losses on either US2/32. I’m not going to spend money that’s going to be lost. I’ll just build out of range in the aforementioned sea zones. If you commit your Japanese forces towards the Atlantic, a turn or two of U.S. Pacific builds forces a much larger Japanese force to respond (to gain numerical superiority), and time wasted flying fighters to Europe is wasted doubly when they fly back to Asia.
It’s a good move by the US but the Japanese usually have their navy still present on the area. You don’t need to fly back the fighters since the US buildup on the Pacific will be slow and you can simply build more fighters for the Japanese. It thus cost Japan some time to deal with US units though
3. Buildup units northwest of UK, then drop to Karelia/Archangel. Your fighters do not deter this.
The best option that the Allies have but it also takes off pressure from Germany since the Allied fleet will be on SZ4 and unable to land on Germany/E. Eur. And you can always move back the fighters to E.Eur to disrupt Allied movement.
4. If you have infantry stacks on W. Eur/Ger/E. Eur, I think Germany will be losing the war of attrition against Russia, particualrly with a few UK/US fighter reinforcement flights to Moscow.
During the first rounds it can be tricky to retake Kar/Belo/Ukr but Germany if G builds enough infantry then can have the advantage. As the Japanese fighters start arriving at W. Eur it can switch most of its production towards Russia while Russia will have to start dealing with the Japanese.
The usual places for the UK/US fighters are West Russia/Caucasus/Russia. West Russia isn’t an immediate objective with this strategy, so any fighters there won’t anything on that front, other than blasting lone German infantry. And that might backfire since for every ftr lost it will have to kill 3 infantry, otherwise the Allies in general you’ll be losing in IPCs (and attrition replacements will have to come from the naval budget).
Any Russian stacks on WR will also benefit the Japanese, since those units won’t be deployed against them. Russia and Caucasus are good places to use them, but if Germany/Japan can force Russia out of the Caucasus (for instance, by moving a large Japanese stack to Novosibirsk) then they will have to retreat to Russia as well.
Overall, the WE/Ger/EE infantry stacks can work nicely: the armor can be kept on Germany to help protect it, while the threat of the Japanese airforce can prevent the UK from moving its fleet into SZ6 and landing on E.Eur. The problem for the Axis is when the Allies start to simply land units on Archangel, which can then be assigned to deal with either the Germans or the Japanese.–
My preferred strat:
1. Bombers on W. Europe, not fighters. You can hit the sea zone northwest of UK, preventing a cheap E. Canada/London transport chain. You can also stop transports headed to Africa via Brazil unless the transports take a REALLY roundabout route.
2. Tanks used as defense in Western Europe for early/midgame. Late game, Germany produces pure tanks, with more tanks coming off their defense duty in W. Europe.
3. Abandon W. Europe if necessary. Moscow must fall.
Yeah on all. Depends on the situation and how much you really need WE. I’ve been forced to abandon this strat because of all kinds of unexpected situations, some good, some bad. Sometimes I have to use armor on WE, sometimes I will choose to abandon it to take Moscow, etc.
Bombers in W. Europe solve so many problems.
A. You can trade territory with Russia and come right back.
B. Defend Africa
C. Force the Allies to build two large defensive anti-air fleets, OR to stick to transporting every other turn.Elaboration of C - if the Axis stick to fighters and do NOT mass a few bombers, you can send march U.S. ground units into Eastern Canada. The next step is for a US transport northwest of UK to go to Eastern Canada and drop it in London. The next step is for another US transport adjacent to London to drop troops wherever - usually Karelia/Archangel, but threatening the Baltic and Western Europe as well. The Allies only need to build one real defensive fleet, to protect the offloading point in Asia/Europe; that defensive fleet carries a couple fodder destroyers to be used as described in a moment.
Only a very light escort is needed for the fleet northwest of UK if the Axis only have fighters to defend with. All you need defend against is the rogue bomber or two.
The main defensive fleet responds to any German fleet buildup with massive air. Sub builds meet up with destroyers plus air and are destroyed. The Germans shouldn’t even bother trying to build a fleet because it will be instantly nuked.
But if the Germans have mostly bombers defending in Western Europe, the Allies need to build the usual main defensive fleet, but need also build another bomber-proof fleet northwest of UK. Suppose the Germans have 4 bombers and 2 fighters on Western Europe, and 2 more fighters on Eastern Europe. The northwest fleet should probably have a loaded carrier and 2 destroyers, at LEAST, for really favorable odds - meaning there’s still some chance of bad dice, with the Germans deciding to take a chance and blowing the small defensive fleet, and any and all US transports in the area, straight to hell, which means the fleet should probably be even BIGGER than that. At this point, you’re talking about the Allies spending significantly more on navy than the Axis have on air force - again, because the Allies need to maintain TWO defensive fleets.
Yes to all.Well, that’s my take on the game so far.
What would I do as Allies? I’m leaning towards heavy air builds on the first turn right now with UK and US to leave the Allies some flexibility. Not sure if that’s what I’ll end up doing in the end, but it’s a thought.
Sometimes the US goes Pacific. The best play I’ve seen as Allies is the landing of units on Archangel but securing first Africa with the mininum. The usual problem with the Archangel move is that G can take the opportunity to build a huge army and keep the European front at a stalemate. The advantage with this is that the Allies can make things very hard on Japan on Asia if Germany doesn’t keep the pressure.
Couple thoughts
-Personally I like 2 inf 2 arm 2 bmb G1 these days. I’m not sure this is the best opening against someone like Hobbes but I like it alot cause it means UK won’t land anything securely until UK3, and if there’s no fleet in SZ2 after UK1, then there are lots of other good targets for my bombers G2. Normally, I’m not buying any more bombers after this, since the Allies have already been delayed long enough to take care of Russia.
-I don’t personally use the Jap figs in Western tactic much (typically, I prefer using them to wear out Russia), but its a super effective strat against a KGF. Granted bombers in Western are much more effective since they can strike sz 2 and can hit way more targets from Western. But the chief rationale here is the Allies cannot make combined fleet movements from 12 to 6 or 7 unless UK has sufficient protection to repel a Jap attack. If the UK navy moves up to 2 in order to land in 4 afterwards, then the Jap figs can move to EEU. Whatever happens the UK naval force has to be stronger than the Jap air force in order to land troops. If the Japs keep buying planes, then UK will sink a hell of a lot of money into aircraft carriers.
-The Brazil route and the Brazil factory sound tempting, but are ineffective imho. Unless you want to lose your starting Atlantic units, you gotta wait till USA2 to make your move to Brazil…and then you won’t land in mid-Africa until USA3. I’d rather just mass in Algeria.
Nice responses. For those picking up this thread here, we are discussing German response to KGF.
I did not make clear the “Allied fighters to Moscow” shuttle idea, or the “committed infantry/artillery on G1” ideas.
1. Allied fighters to Moscow is a bad move when taken in isolation. As Hobbes stated, Allies cannot swap fighters for German or Japanese ground.
To clarify, I predict the situation to be that if the Allies did end up going KGF, that the US should have a minmum of 4 fighters, and the UK a minimum of 2 fighters. The Allies should have built these fighters for three reasons.
A. Destroy any German naval buildup in the Baltic area. (There probably won’t be any real threatening German build in the Baltic anyways.)
B. Landed on carriers to help protect the Allied fleet
C. To trade territory with Germany and/or Japan together with Allied ground units. (Early in the game, surviving UK ground forces from Trans-Jordan to India, and surviving US ground forces from China can be used to swap, using infantry/bomber or infantry/two fightes. Later in the game, UK and US ground forces come from transports.)
So this is to say that the Allies should have fighters without having significantly impaired their Atlantic transport chain. This is also to say that the Allies SHOULD have broken into Africa and/or have landed in Karelia/Archangel before Moscow is seriously threatened; it’s a typical KGF. Soon, the Allies crack Norway and start threatening W. Europe in force. It’s about now that the Allies can choose to send fighters to Moscow or West Russia. Moscow based UK and US fighters reinforce against Japan’s final press from the east, while trading Russian territory with UK/US ground forces in the west.
That is, Allied fighters to Moscow is not a strategy of itself. It’s a tactic the Allies should use as part of their overall plan to defend Moscow, and to buy more time for the Allies to crack Germany open.
2. On the idea of a committed infantry/artillery build on G1 (specifically 12 infantry 1 artillery) - Russia goes first. Russia does not need to (or, I would even say, want to) signal the Allied intentions towards Germany or Japan. Next up is Germany. My idea is that the Germans will inevitably want to push infantry on Russia, regardless of whatever they want to do. Since that is the only given at this point (that you want infantry to press towards Moscow), that is what I think the G1 build should commit to. On UK1 and US1 (AFTER the G1 turn), the Allies usually signal their intent to go KGF or KJF depending on the Axis build.
I’d say that if the Germans build a German bomber after the UK/US have already committed to KGF, that’s fine and appropriate. But until then, I do not see a need for a German bomber. So why build one, considering that every bomber means 4 less early infantry pressing on Moscow? UK1/US1 landing in Libya (in Africa) should already be easily covered by German fighters / bomber in Western Europe with German subs in the Atlantic.
I think that if you see an Allied fleet build coming, then you can counter with the necessary number of bombers.
There is no question that Germany CAN use early bombers. It’s just that I think German has more need of early infantry, to open up Germany’s options by the time the first and second German-built infantry waves start hitting the Karelia/Belorussia/Ukraine region.
Red responses below.
@Zhukov44:
the chief rationale here is the Allies cannot make combined fleet movements from edit - probably Zhukov meant from sea zone 2 northwest of UK to sea zones 3 (Norway), 6 (Norway and Western Europe), and/or 7 (Western Europe) unless UK has sufficient protection to repel a Jap attack. If the UK navy moves up to 2 in order to land in 4 afterwards, then the Jap figs can move to EEU. Whatever happens the UK naval force has to be stronger than the Jap air force in order to land troops. If the Japs keep buying planes, then UK will sink a hell of a lot of money into aircraft carriers.Response below.
-The Brazil route and the Brazil factory sound tempting, but are ineffective imho. Unless you want to lose your starting Atlantic units, you gotta wait till USA2 to make your move to Brazil…and then you won’t land in mid-Africa until USA3. I’d rather just mass in Algeria.Woah, I do not in any way advocate a Brazil IC. To be clear, I predict that if there are lots of fighters in Western Europe, and few bombers, that what you should see is 2 US transports plus a light escort (1-2 destroyers plus carrier plus possible cruiser) dropping units into Brazil on one turn (since Brazil is still in range of the W. Europe bombers, the transports should be emptied), followed by the same transports picking up the Brazil units and dropping them into French West Africa/French Equatorial Africa/Belgian Congo as appropriate on the next turn. Meanwhile, the UK builds up sea units northwest of UK.
To clarify, what I’m saying is heavy Axis investment in fighters keyed to Western Europe is, I think, possibly a mistake. Those fighters have little flexibility against Russia (being limited to Karelia), and cannot defend Africa (being limited to countering against Libya). The Allies can maneuver around the fighters’ limited range to achieve their objectives in both Africa (by routing through Brazil - again, NO Brazil IC!) and in Karelia/Archangel (by using its built up navy from sea zone 2 to drop into sea zone 4 on the first naval drop, then following with the cost-effective transport chain of Eastern Canada-London / London-Karelia or Archangel. Once you have the Allies establishing that cost-effective infantry chain, it’s quite bad for the Axis.
If the Germans keep fighters in W. Europe, Allies drop ground to sea zone 4, Karelia/Archangel. If the Germans pull fighters to E. Europe, Allies drop ground to sea zone 5, Norway, where the E. Europe fighters can’t hit them. The same applies for Japanese fighters. Sure, you protect Norway and Western Europe early on, but as far as I can tell, Axis fighters do not prevent the Allies from landing ground units in Europe!!! What’s the point of guarding the barn door after the cow’s run off?
The limited range of the Axis fighters leaves the Allies free to establish the cost-effective Eastern Canada-London / London-Europe transport chain, while requiring only a single defensive Allied fleet for its London-Europe group (plus minor fleet escort for anti-bomber purposes for the transports in the Canada-London chain). This is why I think the “correct” German response to KGF allied Atlantic transport fleet plan requires German bombers starting G2, or perhaps even on G3 - at any rate, after the Germans have seen the Allies commit to an Atlantic navy.
True, Axis fighters are a fantastic ground defense once the Allies start really messing with Germany, but I have last-moment German infantry builds to counter that, as well as a mass of tanks plus air to wipe out any premature Allied advance into Europe. I think I’m already fairly well off in regard to ground defense.
It’s the naval defense that I’m concerned with, and as far as I see, Axis fighters in Western Europe do NOT fit the bill.
I think Germany will still want some fighters as fodder, but that bombers are the key to its defense.
@Bunnies:
Nice responses. For those picking up this thread here, we are discussing German response to KGF.
I did not make clear the “Allied fighters to Moscow” shuttle idea, or the “committed infantry/artillery on G1” ideas.
1. Allied fighters to Moscow is a bad move when taken in isolation. As Hobbes stated, Allies cannot swap fighters for German or Japanese ground.
To clarify, I predict the situation to be that if the Allies did end up going KGF, that the US should have a minmum of 4 fighters, and the UK a minimum of 2 fighters. The Allies should have built these fighters for three reasons.
A. Destroy any German naval buildup in the Baltic area. (There probably won’t be any real threatening German build in the Baltic anyways.)
B. Landed on carriers to help protect the Allied fleet
C. To trade territory with Germany and/or Japan together with Allied ground units. (Early in the game, surviving UK ground forces from Trans-Jordan to India, and surviving US ground forces from China can be used to swap, using infantry/bomber or infantry/two fightes. Later in the game, UK and US ground forces come from transports.)So this is to say that the Allies should have fighters without having significantly impaired their Atlantic transport chain. This is also to say that the Allies SHOULD have broken into Africa and/or have landed in Karelia/Archangel before Moscow is seriously threatened; it’s a typical KGF. Soon, the Allies crack Norway and start threatening W. Europe in force. It’s about now that the Allies can choose to send fighters to Moscow or West Russia. Moscow based UK and US fighters reinforce against Japan’s final press from the east, while trading Russian territory with UK/US ground forces in the west.
That is, Allied fighters to Moscow is not a strategy of itself. It’s a tactic the Allies should use as part of their overall plan to defend Moscow, and to buy more time for the Allies to crack Germany open.
2. On the idea of a committed infantry/artillery build on G1 (specifically 12 infantry 1 artillery) - Russia goes first. Russia does not need to (or, I would even say, want to) signal the Allied intentions towards Germany or Japan. Next up is Germany. My idea is that the Germans will inevitably want to push infantry on Russia, regardless of whatever they want to do. Since that is the only given at this point (that you want infantry to press towards Moscow), that is what I think the G1 build should commit to. On UK1 and US1 (AFTER the G1 turn), the Allies usually signal their intent to go KGF or KJF depending on the Axis build.
I’d say that if the Germans build a German bomber after the UK/US have already committed to KGF, that’s fine and appropriate. But until then, I do not see a need for a German bomber. So why build one, considering that every bomber means 4 less early infantry pressing on Moscow? UK1/US1 landing in Libya (in Africa) should already be easily covered by German fighters / bomber in Western Europe with German subs in the Atlantic.
I think that if you see an Allied fleet build coming, then you can counter with the necessary number of bombers.
There is no question that Germany CAN use early bombers. It’s just that I think German has more need of early infantry, to open up Germany’s options by the time the first and second German-built infantry waves start hitting the Karelia/Belorussia/Ukraine region.
I agree with everything. The question of the 2nd German bomber I guess is a personal choice that increases the possibility (but still low though) to prevent any UK1 naval build. Limiting the UK’s options at the beginning buys time for the Germans against the UK/US, which is how I really prefer to play Germany, regardless of KGF/KJF. Unless you are planning to move a German stack to Karelia/Ukraine around round 4, which is not my usual German play unless Russia has gone after Norway on round 1.
But your points regarding the all inf buy for G1 are valid. I’ve tried that purchase before if R1 plays out differently than usual but I’ll try it more using the all inf buy for G1.
@Bunnies:
I’d say that if the Germans build a German bomber after the UK/US have already committed to KGF, that’s fine and appropriate. But until then, I do not see a need for a German bomber. So why build one, considering that every bomber means 4 less early infantry pressing on Moscow? UK1/US1 landing in Libya (in Africa) should already be easily covered by German fighters / bomber in Western Europe with German subs in the Atlantic.
I think that if you see an Allied fleet build coming, then you can counter with the necessary number of bombers.
If you buy no bomber, then that means UK may be able to build SZ2 or SZ8 UK1. Consider the odds Hobbes posted on SZ2
Germany: 1 ftr, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
33.1% win, 66.9% lossGermany: 2 ftrs, 2 bmrs, 2 subs
Allies: 2 ftrs, 2 DDs, 1 AC, 1 sub
68.5% win, 31.5% loss
So if all you got is 2 figs 1 bmb 2 ss (an optimistic scenario) then your odds are only a tad better than 33%. If I’m UK, I’m happy to take that bet……even if I lose I’ll take u-boats and planes down with me. But with the extra bomber, G’s odds jump to 69%. A large part of why I prefer 2 bombers is for security on those (common) occasions when Germany loses 1-2 more figs in SZ13 or SZ2… With the 2 bmb buy, I can be confident I’ll have 70%+ for SZ2 G2 unless I got absolutely diced G1.
Now, that’s only a 1 turn delay…is 1 turn worth missing out on the extra inf? The delay translates into IPCs for Axis. There are the costs to UK in putting its cash into ACs and dds early. There’s the 6 swing of controlling Norway (ie you will control it through G3, if not longer). You also prevent a secure landing in Africa for an additional turn, which could be a significant IPC swing. Lastly, there’s the value of having extra bombers each turn for the duration of the game.
If Allies see my bomber buy and decide to play a KJF strategy, then that’s great…the odds for Axis victory have gone up! I would think a KGF response is equally as likely since Germany will be perceived as thin on the ground for the first few turns. In reality, while the Soviets might score some temporary gains because Germany is inf light, they won’t be able to follow up unless the German player continues to invest in non land units like subs or bombers. Germany’s mass of air power ensures Russia will get the worst of the trades over the duration.
Like Hobbes I could see myself forgetting about the bombers and going all inf/art/arm against certain R1 moves, such as a successful Nor conquest.
Looking at the board again, I see that you’re right about the Norway deterrent. Clever.
I’ll have to think about the Norway/Africa situation again!
Great discussion. Insightful. Helpful.
Really great discussion and strategy here; it helps me understand overall objectives and how to reach them much better.
Question though:
G1 attack Ukraine with only 2 inf and 1 fighter…
How is that possible? Usually Russia has 3 tanks, 1 art and maybe even 1 inf remaining in Ukraine (after R1 take W.R. and Ukr.)
In order to take Ukr, G1 I usually have to send 5 inf, 2 tanks and 1 fig to get 90% odds.
This changes things a little because then EE has only 4 tanks after G1 rather than 6 tanks, so it takes a little longer to build up.
Another question I have is when you’re just trying to trade territories for example Russia and Germany trading Ukr, what battle odds should you look for? I mean should you only commit enough units to have 75% chance to win or something like that, or should it be more like 90%?
Thanks
Really great discussion and strategy here; it helps me understand overall objectives and how to reach them much better.
Question though:
G1 attack Ukraine with only 2 inf and 1 fighter…
How is that possible? Usually Russia has 3 tanks, 1 art and maybe even 1 inf remaining in Ukraine (after R1 take W.R. and Ukr.)
In order to take Ukr, G1 I usually have to send 5 inf, 2 tanks and 1 fig to get 90% odds.
This changes things a little because then EE has only 4 tanks after G1 rather than 6 tanks, so it takes a little longer to build up.
Like you mentioned, the more Russia has on the Ukraine, the harder it gets to retake it. The 2 inf + 1 ftr are good for a single Russian tank.
The number of Russian units on Ukraine that survive the attack is something to consider when choosing this strat. The best counter I’ve seen so far involves Russia pushing hard on Ukraine while the remaining Allies scramble to try to squeeze G before Japan arrives.
Another question I have is when you’re just trying to trade territories for example Russia and Germany trading Ukr, what battle odds should you look for? I mean should you only commit enough units to have 75% chance to win or something like that, or should it be more like 90%?
Thanks
When trading territories I usually look more into the numbers of units involved and their power. Against 1 unit, 2 inf + fighter, against 2 units, 3 inf + ftr, against 3, 5 inf + ftr, etc. Overall I’d say that you need 75% and plus odds on those attacks.
Very helpfull discussion on strategy - I was following it for a game where I play Axis and it worked out well :-D
For the G1 non-combat turn do you not usually move the Algeria inf+arm to Libya?
It was not explicitly mentioned in the G1 non-combat.
I always do it to be able to retake Egypt?
Do you guys keep them in Algeria to absorb US landing???
They would move up to Libya. In this case it would not be a good idea to make it easy for the allies to pin and destroy your africa forces. Better to make them chase you down, perhaps tie up more allied navy to bring forces to south africa to chase you down.
They would move up to Libya. In this case it would not be a good idea to make it easy for the allies to pin and destroy your africa forces. Better to make them chase you down, perhaps tie up more allied navy to bring forces to south africa to chase you down.
Yes. It’s just one of those automatic moves that I didn’t remember to add it here.
Re: Spring 1942 - Fortress Europe Axis StrategyI remember one game I played as axis I built nothing but submarines with Germany and japan and it helped to secure the coastal territories from attack I also used the German subs had like 7 of them at one and 3 bombers and targeted the British fleet and in the pacific with japan I built up to 9 subs and had a huge air force with them and scared the Americans out of the pacific and my armies were victorious in Russia about to collapse even protected my transports really good
