Table Tactics New Product Release

[reloader-1]

Agree 10000000%

Match colors PERFECTLY.

[DrLarsen]

Oh, Imperious L…, must you be so dismissive and derisive toward your color-challenged fellows?

I realize that some of you have rather strong opinions, here, but recall the long debates early on in the FMG thread (or actually on more than one FMG thread) on the color issue.  Some of the more bone-headed color choices made by WotC were precisely some of the things that many wanted changed.  And while many thought that light grey Italians would have been better… or perhaps the Italian and ANZAC colors reversed… As I recall FMG compromised by saying that he was going to better distinguish the Italians and Soviets by changing each just a shade or two to better differentiate them.  (…hence FMG’s decision, as I understand it, to offer his Soviets in almost the exact same color as what TT is using; remember also the concession FMG has already made to offer two versions of their Germans.)

Anyways, remember that this was the last of the sets that it was too late for TT to scale down, so we really couldn’t expect the full “Complete and/or Compatible” set we’ve been talking about him maybe moving toward for the French.

[Table Tactics]

My color is a little off.

[Imperious Leader]

WE are trying to help you. As it stands now you are competing with FMG and they have the advantage of better detail and color match. You maintain the advantage of getting the product out first and price point. You can do better. The first thing is to make the pieces compatible with the actual games that people are playing right now, rather than matching old out of print games. This is very basic. First get the basics down, then think out of the box and consider the color issue once you got complete sets of all the land sea and air pieces. You got to walk before you can run and you have to be practical and common sence is not coming out with just a couple of tanks in the wrong color.

I promise you as i said from the start the size and color of all these pieces must be a perfect match. A match not with out of print games, but the current ones.

Of course you can just continue making these sets. I will have to repaint them. As you know most of us can only use the tanks that are in scale, which is about half of each set, the infantry get the guns cut and we get fortification units. If you make more sets with colors that are not current, you just add another burden to the product.

I wish the approach you made originally was to gain ideas from the community before spending money, rather than “poof” here is the next set of larger red pieces. Even the German pieces are not the same, or the Italian, or American. They are always a few shades off.

I don’t know why matching colors is so hard, i guess its based on the limitations of the plastic that you order, which does not offer a complete color profile.

Either way i always wish you the best of luck, but remain somewhat skeptical based on the outcome of what we got so far.

I would make a poll about which color people like, that way you know exactly what the buyers want and can cater to them. Sell the top result and you can’t go wrong. Right now its hit and miss IMO>

Of course i will still buy to support your effort and usually outbuy everybody because i always put my money out.

[crsluggo]

Hey guys, just a reminder, there are other uses for the Table Tactics pieces other than just A&A. For example, I’m using them in my collection of Memoir '44 where the scaling is just great. I use the Infantry weapons as SWA’s or to differentiate Italian forces from German forces since DOW hasn’t produced an Italian army as of yet.

[rorschach9]

@Table:

My color is a little off.

Which version of the game is that OOB russian tank from?  If it’s from AA50/AAE40/AA42, then from what i can see, it’s just fine (Matching colors 100% is not as easy as people would like to imagine!)

[knp7765]

That OOB Soviet tank looks like it’s from one of the earlier A&A games where the Soviets were more of a burgandy color.  I got my games later, after they started using the current maroon color for the Soviet Union pieces but a while back I bought a lot of pieces on eBay and it had some of these burgandy Russians.

I have to agree with IL on this.  The current color of Soviet pieces for A&A is maroon, basically a dark brown with a reddish tint to it.  I realize that color matching 100% is very hard but you should come closer than this.  Perhaps these pieces can be used for other games, but your biggest amount of wargamers will want them for A&A.  Thus, that is where you will make your biggest sales.

[DrLarsen]

I agree, knp.  (Hey, I made a rhyme this time…)  :lol:

The template tank definitely looks to be from an earlier A&A version (at least on my screen.)

I wish WotC had stuck with this color, but they didn’t, so when TT comes up with their next set of Russians they probably should go browner.

My point (IL) is not that he shouldn’t stay within the realm of “Compatible-and/or-Complete” for future endeavers, which I believe TT has already decided to do, but that it’s pointless to beat him up (or the color-blind among us) over his failing to do so in this set, as he’d already confessed that this set was too late to change.  Hopefully this set will find some uses even if it’s not what we were hoping for.

My other point was that WotC’s many mis-steps have created opportunities in this market, yes, but also dilemmas.  It’s not always so “black-and-white” (even for the color-blind…)  So… if he gets around to doing a revised Russians set before FMG, then I agree, get both size and color much closer to current OOB standards.  If he doesn’t until after… well, let’s see what FMG does.  I’d kind of rather have FMG do theirs in this color than OOB brown, and since theirs will be a complete replacement in all categories for OOB pieces, it should work fine!

[Imperious Leader]

It will work fine but Jack will not generate as many sales and that’s the issue. He has to make money and we must help him and others like him. With that being said, it is entirely permissible to keep pointing point why and how the product he does release will not succeed. With trial and error being the case here, it would be much more prudent to establish what is going to be produced first by gaining consensus, then the reflection of this insight will allow for the best decisions for jack.

What he is doing is “ask the wife” who does not play AA, then release another product without any information being gathered to what makes the most sence from the very people who play and will buy these pieces.

He established his line of pieces to cater to the AA people and originally made his colors to match them. Latter as new colors arrived he made greater strides and produced them as well. Now it’s a situation of trying to reinvent the wheel, by catering to the fewer people who are bothered by the color issue at the expense of the many who prefer the colors match the OOB perfectly.

He has first to establish the OOB colors first, then chase the issue of alternate colors once he got his investment back.

You got to have a sustainable business, which means catering to the many and not the few. Once you are in the black, roll out pink, red and the other colors.

[reloader-1]

I agree with ILhere.

Although IL may not be the most diplomatic of persons, his message rings true - more people would prefer the OOB colors. Cater to the majority market first, make your money, then do alternate colors.

[DrLarsen]

Yeah, I think we’re agreed here on the path forward; I’m just saying no use beating up TT over “spilt milk” so to speak.

As he said before, the first project that can really take all our advice into account is his Frenchies, so I’m anxious to see how that’s coming along.

So, TT have you done any air/naval yet for France?  I’ll be happy to send you some Panzerschiffe French ships with my compliments if it’ll help you advance the project…

(They’ll of course be way too big, but you could use them for a template…)

[Table Tactics]

@rorschach9:

@Table:

My color is a little off.

Which version of the game is that OOB russian tank from?  If it’s from AA50/AAE40/AA42, then from what i can see, it’s just fine (Matching colors 100% is not as easy as people would like to imagine!)

I should be able to match color perfectly.  The company sent me a sample.  But for me to sample would cost a couple hundred so I took a chance.  :oops:

[Table Tactics]

@knp7765:

That OOB Soviet tank looks like it’s from one of the earlier A&A games where the Soviets were more of a burgandy color.  I got my games later, after they started using the current maroon color for the Soviet Union pieces but a while back I bought a lot of pieces on eBay and it had some of these burgandy Russians.

I have to agree with IL on this.  The current color of Soviet pieces for A&A is maroon, basically a dark brown with a reddish tint to it.  I realize that color matching 100% is very hard but you should come closer than this.  Perhaps these pieces can be used for other games, but your biggest amount of wargamers will want them for A&A.  Thus, that is where you will make your biggest sales.

I don’t have every A&A game out but what I see is an ever changing color selection.  Look back and you will see my German units do match some versions.
Also what I see in the latest Europe version is that the Russian and Italian units are almost the same color.

A lot of you may remember the old original A&A with the British tan and the light colored Japanese tanks and planes that were hard to identify on the board because they look so much alike.  The Japanese infantry were a little darker and that is what I matched my pieces with.  At least I got good feedback from that move.  :-)

[Table Tactics]

@DrLarsen:

Yeah, I think we’re agreed here on the path forward; I’m just saying no use beating up TT over “spilt milk” so to speak.

As he said before, the first project that can really take all our advice into account is his Frenchies, so I’m anxious to see how that’s coming along.

So, TT have you done any air/naval yet for France?  I’ll be happy to send you some Panzerschiffe French ships with my compliments if it’ll help you advance the project…

(They’ll of course be way too big, but you could use them for a template…)

Thanks for the offer but hold onto those pieces until I catch up.

A medical question for you Doctor.  After reading all these posts I find black & blue marks all over me?

[Variable]

Jack,

A few kind words from a fan to help those “black and blue marks”…

We all have faith in your ability and ambition to deliver the things we want. I know IL and myself, as well as many others have appreciated your support of a WWI setup. Then you were the first and only one to give us “more pieces!” Additionally, you gave us modern A&A and Risk variants that are currently spawning a new game on my table…

In short, you have always given us what we want. We just want to make sure you understand what we want. That way, we get what we want and you get the thanks (read CASH) for it. That way you can spend more on getting us more things we want.

I know some of the comments here seem harsh or nit-picky. But I think in the end it will pay off. We’re something like 130 pages into the FMG post and nobody’s even held one in there hand yet.

Keep doing what your doing and listen to those of us that play the games. It’s worked for Larry, it will work for you.

P.S. - Can you make a few more copies of Cromwell? I never got one…

[DrLarsen]

A medical question for you Doctor.  After reading all these posts I find black & blue marks all over me?

Sorry man, not that kind of dr.  (I have a doctorate in history, and decided to go by DrLarsen as that’s what my students knew me as, back when I joined this forum to get ideas for the “Historical Strategy Boardgames Club” I’d created… but please, call me Aaron…)

As to the criticism, just remember that IL and the gang mean well, even if they’re a little blunt at times.  These six sets of “oversized armor” & “oddball infantry” are an unfortunate mis-step by being too far outside of traditional AA size parameters (for tanks) and style parameters (for infantry), but you still have time to get it on the right track for the Frenchies.

I would have to say that it will be very important to hit the color match as close to the bulls-eye as you can for the Frenchies, especially if you chose to skip doing your own infantry/transport/artillery pieces like we suggested, which probably makes sense.  Skipping some of those pieces for which there will be less demand for alternatives/upgrades makes sense, but as “Aaron’s Axis & Allies Accessories Axiom” clearly states:

“if you aren’t COMPLETE, you must be COMPATIBLE!”  :-D

[knp7765]

@Table:

@knp7765:

That OOB Soviet tank looks like it’s from one of the earlier A&A games where the Soviets were more of a burgandy color.  I got my games later, after they started using the current maroon color for the Soviet Union pieces but a while back I bought a lot of pieces on eBay and it had some of these burgandy Russians.

I have to agree with IL on this.  The current color of Soviet pieces for A&A is maroon, basically a dark brown with a reddish tint to it.  I realize that color matching 100% is very hard but you should come closer than this.  Perhaps these pieces can be used for other games, but your biggest amount of wargamers will want them for A&A.  Thus, that is where you will make your biggest sales.

I don’t have every A&A game out but what I see is an ever changing color selection.  Look back and you will see my German units do match some versions.
Also what I see in the latest Europe version is that the Russian and Italian units are almost the same color.

A lot of you may remember the old original A&A with the British tan and the light colored Japanese tanks and planes that were hard to identify on the board because they look so much alike.  The Japanese infantry were a little darker and that is what I matched my pieces with.  At least I got good feedback from that move.  :-)

Okay, I don’t understand something here.  I have read a number of people saying that the Russians and Italians look alike.  I look down at the board and I can tell them apart fairly easily.  Granted, we are basically talking about two shades of brown, but the Italians are more of a medium brown while the Russians are, to me anyway, quite a bit darker with a slight red tint to them.  I can’t believe that someone would get them so confused as to not be able to tell which is which on the game board.

[reloader-1]

I agree with knp - the colors are distinct enough on my board.

Jack, DrLarsens’ axiom is the best I’ve ever heard to describe what we are trying to do - “If it’s not COMPLETE, it must be COMPATIBLE”.

Make the French pieces in exact color matching to the AAE40 French pieces and you will have a runaway hit on your hands.

[finnman]

The russian guns are america. A tompson instead of a ppsh

[DrLarsen]

The russian guns are america. A tompson instead of a ppsh

If you look closely, you’ll notice that he only has to mold sets for the infantry, one for the axis (which are all German small arms) and one for the allies (which includes a mixture of American and British small arms: note that it also has a Bren MG and SMLE rifle.)

If you’re actually planning to use TT’s new infantry (which seems to be a minority from what I’ve heard) just remember that the Russians did use plenty of lend-lease small arms… (including Tommy guns… which the Russians actually criticized for not having enough penetrating power compared to the PPSh against infantry all bundled up vs. the Russian winter.)