Japan 1 Attack Breakdown

[allweneedislove]

here is just one attack. i am not saying this is the optimal attack, but it does show that a japan first round(j1) declaration of war(dow) is far superior to a j2, j3, or j4 dow.

ignore the attacks on chahar, anhwe, hunan, and yunnan because those attacks will happen if it is a j1 or later dow.

so j1 attacks are as follows

Territory       Allied Units                        Axis Units                                  Territory IPC Swap    Unit IPC Swap      Total IPC Gain
SZ34           1BB, 2Trans          1Fig Formosa, 2Bomb Japan, 1Bomb Kiangsu              0                       24                      24
Kwangtung   2Inf                     2inf Japan, 3Fig+2Tac Manchuria                            11                       3                      14
SZ35           1Trans, 1Dest       All from SZ19 and SZ33                                         0                       15                      15
Philippines    2Inf, 1Fig, 1Bomb   1Inf Jap+Car+Pal, 1Art Jap, 1Tac+1Fig SZ33             9                       19                      28
SZ26           1Trans                 1Sub SZ6                                                           0                        1                       1
                                                                                                                                                           Total   82

the chart shows the average outcome of battles and in the sz26 battle the counter attack aswell.
the chart does not show the capture of the naval base at kwangtung, the naval and air base in philippines
the chart does not show the importance of killing uk trans that would take 8ipc of dei, or usa trans being in a threatning position

Summary
japan gets 82ipc difference of central units and territories, while sacrificing 40ipc to a far away usa which can only move those 40ipc worth of units on their 3rd turn .
j1 dow > j2, j3, or j4 dow

[calvinhobbesliker]

Actually, it gives USA 80 IPC’s: 40 collected at the end of the 1st turn and 40 at the end of the second

[calvinhobbesliker]

@allweneedislove:

here is just one attack. i am not saying this is the optimal attack, but it does show that a japan first round(j1) declaration of war(dow) is far superior to a j2, j3, or j4 dow.

ignore the attacks on chahar, anhwe, hunan, and yunnan because those attacks will happen if it is a j1 or later dow.

so j1 attacks are as follows

Territory       Allied Units                        Axis Units                                  Territory IPC Swap    Unit IPC Swap      Total IPC Gain
SZ34           1BB, 2Trans          1Fig Formosa, 2Bomb Japan, 1Bomb Kiangsu              0                       24                      24
Kwangtung   2Inf                     2inf Japan, 3Fig+2Tac Manchuria                            9                        3                       12
SZ35           1Trans, 1Dest       All from SZ19 and SZ33                                         0                       15                      15
Philippines    2Inf, 1Fig, 1Bomb   1Inf Jap+Car+Pal, 1Art Jap, 1Tac+1Fig SZ33             9                       19                      28
SZ26           1Trans                 1Sub SZ6                                                           0                        1                       1
                                                                                                                                                            Total   80

the chart shows the average outcome of battles and in the sz26 battle the counter attack aswell.
the chart does not show the capture of the naval base at kwangtung, the naval and air base in philippines
the chart does not show the importance of killing uk trans that would take 8ipc of dei, or usa trans being in a threatning position

Summary
japan gets 80ipc difference of central units and territories, while sacrificing 40ipc to a far away usa which can only move those 40ipc worth of units on their 3rd turn .
j1 dow > j2, j3, or j4 dow

How do you get 12 for Kwangtung? 28 for Phil?

[allweneedislove]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Actually, it gives USA 80 IPC’s: 40 collected at the end of the 1st turn and 40 at the end of the second

usa collects 40ipc in perpetuity. the ipc difference i showed was also unit value per round in perpetuity.

the difference between a j1dow and a j2 dow is usa gets 40ipc 1 round earlier.

[allweneedislove]

@calvinhobbesliker:

How do you get 12 for Kwangtung? 28 for Phil?

philippeans is worth 2ipc for japan, usa does not collect 2ipc for holding philippeans, usa does not collect 5ipc for objective.
japan collects 2ipc, usa does not collect 7ipc. 9ipc swing in favour of japan for the territory

in philippeans battle usa losses 2inf, 1fig, 1bomber worth 28ipc, japan losses on avererage 3inf worth 9ipc.
japan is positive 19ipc worth of units in the battle.

territory+unit=28ipc for philippeans

good catch for kwangtung. i mistakenly valued it at 2ipc instead of 3. i will edit the original post.

[Veqryn]

@allweneedislove:

here is just one attack. i am not saying this is the optimal attack, but it does show that a japan first round(j1) declaration of war(dow) is far superior to a j2, j3, or j4 dow.

ignore the attacks on chahar, anhwe, hunan, and yunnan because those attacks will happen if it is a j1 or later dow.

so j1 attacks are as follows

Territory       Allied Units                        Axis Units                                  Territory IPC Swap    Unit IPC Swap      Total IPC Gain
SZ34           1BB, 2Trans          1Fig Formosa, 2Bomb Japan, 1Bomb Kiangsu              0                       24                      24
Kwangtung   2Inf                     2inf Japan, 3Fig+2Tac Manchuria                            11                       3                      14
SZ35           1Trans, 1Dest       All from SZ19 and SZ33                                         0                       15                      15
Philippines    2Inf, 1Fig, 1Bomb   1Inf Jap+Car+Pal, 1Art Jap, 1Tac+1Fig SZ33             9                       19                      28
SZ26           1Trans                 1Sub SZ6                                                           0                        1                       1
                                                                                                                                                           Total   82

the chart shows the average outcome of battles and in the sz26 battle the counter attack aswell.
the chart does not show the capture of the naval base at kwangtung, the naval and air base in philippines
the chart does not show the importance of killing uk trans that would take 8ipc of dei, or usa trans being in a threatning position

Summary
japan gets 82ipc difference of central units and territories, while sacrificing 40ipc to a far away usa which can only move those 40ipc worth of units on their 3rd turn .
j1 dow > j2, j3, or j4 dow

ya but most of those units die anyway on later turns
its not like the UK is going to run up to hong kong and load those 2 guys and move them somewhere else if you don’t do a j1 attack
even on a j4 attack, those 2 poor suckers will still be sitting in hong kong waiting to die
so i don’t think you should include them in your calculations

you should only include in your calculations the things that CAN AND USUALLY DO LEAVE if you don’t destroy them j1
so for example, the bomber in the philippines can be included in the calculating, but the 2 guys in kwangtung can not.

i would also not include include the 2 inf in the philippines, and i probably would not include the naval units either because you can destroy them in a j2 attack no matter where they move (only waiting til a j3 attack would they have time to link up with anything large enough that you can’t destroy, so unless comparing to a j3, i would not include them)

also, love,
can you detail out all your japan turn 1 moves including purchases, all combat moves, and all noncombat
i would like to see if it differs from mine

[calvinhobbesliker]

@allweneedislove:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Actually, it gives USA 80 IPC’s: 40 collected at the end of the 1st turn and 40 at the end of the second

usa collects 40ipc in perpetuity. the ipc difference i showed was also unit value per round in perpetuity.

the difference between a j1dow and a j2 dow is usa gets 40ipc 1 round earlier.

Yes, it does, but the US collects 40 on its 3rd, 4th, 5th, and all turns after that. The only difference is that with a J1 attack, it gets 40 on 1st and 2nd turns in addition to the rest.
Also, how could you do unit value per round? The units destroyed are not destroyed each turn.

[allweneedislove]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@allweneedislove:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Actually, it gives USA 80 IPC’s: 40 collected at the end of the 1st turn and 40 at the end of the second

usa collects 40ipc in perpetuity. the ipc difference i showed was also unit value per round in perpetuity.

the difference between a j1dow and a j2 dow is usa gets 40ipc 1 round earlier.

Yes, it does, but the US collects 40 on its 3rd, 4th, 5th, and all turns after that. The only difference is that with a J1 attack, it gets 40 on 1st and 2nd turns in addition to the rest.

hmm i am not sure i can make it easier to understand but i will give it one more try.

j1 dow is one round earlier than a j2 dow. usa can collect 40ipc one round earlier. the difference between j1dow and j2 dow is usa gets 40ipc more.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Also, how could you do unit value per round? The units destroyed are not destroyed each turn.

if you are to count the ipc a power makes every round it makes sense to count the units on the board every round. if you destroy a unit round one it does not get to effect the game round 2 or round 3 etc.

bottom line is you only need to count the difference from round 1 to round 2 as that is what we are trying to compare.

[allweneedislove]

@Veqryn:

ya but most of those units die anyway on later turns
its not like the UK is going to run up to hong kong and load those 2 guys and move them somewhere else if you don’t do a j1 attack
even on a j4 attack, those 2 poor suckers will still be sitting in hong kong waiting to die
so i don’t think you should include them in your calculations

you should only include in your calculations the things that CAN AND USUALLY DO LEAVE if you don’t destroy them j1
so for example, the bomber in the philippines can be included in the calculating, but the 2 guys in kwangtung can not.
i would also not include include the 2 inf in the philippines,

good point. my comparison is unfair. i will adjust it to take into account only units that would not die on a j2 attack

@Veqryn:

and i probably would not include the naval units either because you can destroy them in a j2 attack no matter where they move (only waiting til a j3 attack would they have time to link up with anything large enough that you can’t destroy, so unless comparing to a j3, i would not include them)

i am not sure about this one. the usa can move the sz35 fleet to a spot far away enough that japan could reach it but then leave their fleet way out of position. for example if usa moves it to sz56 off west australia. if japan has positioned itself to be able to reach sz56 on j2 they would be open to an australian counter, or even if they dont get countered j is not at a naval base and takes 2 turns to get into position. i think i will not use them in the ipc comparison, but it does leave j2 out of position which should be included in the decision.

@Veqryn:

also, love,
can you detail out all your japan turn 1 moves including purchases, all combat moves, and all noncombat
i would like to see if it differs from mine

yes but not here as it would be off topic.

[allweneedislove]

using veqs more appropriate count.

Territory      Allied Units                        Axis Units                                  Territory IPC Swap    Unit IPC Swap      Total IPC Gain
SZ34          1BB, 2Trans          1Fig Formosa, 2Bomb Japan, 1Bomb Kiangsu              0                      24                    24
Kwangtung  2Inf                    2inf Japan, 3Fig+2Tac Manchuria                            11                      0                    11
SZ35          1Trans, 1Dest       All from SZ19 and SZ33                                        0                      0                      0
Philippines    2Inf, 1Fig, 1Bomb  1Inf Jap+Car+Pal, 1Art Jap, 1Tac+1Fig SZ33            9                      12                    21
SZ26          1Trans                1Sub SZ6                                                          0                        1                      1
                                                                                                                                                            Total  57
the chart shows the average outcome of battles and in the sz26 battle the counter attack aswell.
the chart does not show the capture of the naval base at kwangtung, the naval and air base in philippines
the chart does not show the importance of killing uk trans that would take 8ipc of dei, or usa trans being in a threatning position
the chart does not show the importance of usa moving sz35 to sz56 to make japan move fleet out of position or counter attack
the chart does not show the importance of usa moving philippeans fig to guam, forcing j to move a transport and escort(to prevent scramble) out of position.

Summary
japan gets 57ipc difference of central units and territories, while sacrificing 40ipc to a far away usa which can only move those 40ipc worth of units on their 3rd turn. japan also does not have to make suboptimal 2nd round attacks that can leave fleets out of position
j1 dow > j2, j3, or j4 dow

[allweneedislove]

bumped for mrblack trying to do kuf

sorry i bumped the wrong thread. will bump correct thread