Most over-rated WWII Leader

[Lazarus]

@Clyde85:

The problem is that there seems to be no bases in reality for any of your claims, and most of what you bring up sounds like revisionist nonsense.

Look hard in the mirror.  I remember an earlier post where you  introduced  British losses for Goodwood (to prove Monty always came off worst) that turned out to be an estimate of POW’s.
I see a lot of  spamming  of the thread with Wiki cut and pastes in  reply to my use of book quotes.
You are welcome to call me anything you like but in comparison to you I am  overburdened with references.

[Col. Ty Webb]

@Lazarus:

@Clyde85:

The problem is that there seems to be no bases in reality for any of your claims, and most of what you bring up sounds like revisionist nonsense.

Look hard in the mirror.  I remember an earlier post where you  introduced  British losses for Goodwood (to prove Monty always came off worst) that turned out to be an estimate of POW’s.
I see a lot of  spamming  of the thread with Wiki cut and pastes in  reply to my use of book quotes.
You are welcome to call me anything you like but in comparison to you I am  overburdened with references.

Yeah but most of your refrences make less sense than the posts.

You spent a whole day posting things you thought proved that Germans thought Monty was on Pattons level, when nobody else who read that passage came to your conclusion. It’s easy to be ‘overburdened’ when you take selective parts of passages that make you sound right, when the whole passage is proving you wrong.

You still continue to use one of your phrases or words to defend yourself from both sides. When someone tries to say Monty wasn’t any good, you say he was Supreme Commander. When someone asks you when he was Supreme Commander, you tell them June to Sept. When someone asks you who replaced Monty, you said Eisenhower. But when someone claims you said any of this you, you go back through and show all of the posts where you said it as proof that you didn’t mean it.

Your circular logic has ripped more holes in the space-time contimuium than the flux capacitor.

And I see you’re still trying to edit history so you don’t look as foolish, but you still can’t seem to get it to work can you.

[Col. Ty Webb]

@Clyde85:

@Col.:

Their banzai charges more often led to them being mowed down rather than be successful. It wasn’t until they adapted the highly defensive tactics of the island hopping campaign that they started to see any form of unity in causalities.

It’s my understanding was that Banzai charges were kind of a last resort, when all other options were exhausted. However this is in contrast to their main attack tactics of the “Mass Assault”, which I know sounds like i’m splitting hairs, but there was a difference. The mass assault was conducted with artillery support (usually in the form of the Type 96,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_96_15_cm_Howitzer ) but was identical to trench assaults of WW1.

Goering is an interesting character to be sure, and as leader of the Luftwaffe he was a dud, but its funny to remember that during WW1 he was one of Germany’s fighter aces. One does have to wonder what happened in the inter-war years to take him from dashing and heroic fighter ace to massive (and I do mean massive) morphine addicted retarded piece of cartilage we know from WW2.

I think it might have been on The World at War, but I can’t remember, but I’ve heard somewhere that it was more the riflemen themselves that would rather do the banzai charge. Many of them happened because the regular Japanese soldier had a tendency to get antsy. They wanted to charge and when the sh*t hit the fan that’s what they would end up doing, It was the one time they really lacked discipline.
I also know that small groups of soldiers would also charge almost as a form of suicide.

As for Goering, the morphine must have played a big part. As you said earlier, and as Lazarus apparently didn’t know, the man was a national hero after WWI, and it’s not like the Luftwaffe was pathetic itself. But he was awful. Some of the footage of him from Nuremberg is great. The allies got him off the morphine and he’s lost 100 pounds, but he still thinks everything is okay. That he’ll be safe. Then he kills himself.

[Lazarus]

@Col.:

You spent a whole day posting things you thought proved that Germans thought Monty was on Pattons level, when nobody else who read that passage came to your conclusion.

I posted the considered opinion of Blumentritt and  Rundstedt. They  are the ones who ranked Monty  as on par with Patton.
I am sure, if they were still alive, they would be mortified that some here consider they made a mistake. Burdened as they were with fighting against Patton and Monty that had not the time to stand back and form an opinion that would be acceptable to the community of WW2 gamers.
I am not here to convince anyone. You are entitlled to your view and it won’t change the facts.
The puzzle for me is the complete inability of many to accept  dissent from the herd mindset…

[Lazarus]

@Col.:

As you said earlier, and as Lazarus apparently didn’t know, the man was a national hero after WWI,

I assure you Lazurus did know.
However Lazarus was unable to see what bearing it had on Goering’s performance in WW2.
Perhaps you could establish the link so Lazarus can see his error?

[Col. Ty Webb]

@Lazarus:

@Col.:

You spent a whole day posting things you thought proved that Germans thought Monty was on Pattons level, when nobody else who read that passage came to your conclusion.

I posted the considered opinion of Blumentritt and  Rundstedt. They  are the ones who ranked Monty  as on par with Patton.
I am sure, if they were still alive, they would be mortified that some here consider they made a mistake. Burdened as they were with fighting against Patton and Monty that had not the time to stand back and form an opinion that would be acceptable to the community of WW2 gamers.
I am not here to convince anyone. You are entitlled to your view and it won’t change the facts.
The puzzle for me is the complete inability of many to accept  dissent from the herd mindset…

And you’re entitled to your view, but I just wish you would stop trying to change the facts.
You posted what you considered to be their opinion, then turned their words to fit your cause. It’s what you’ve been doing to your own posts for days.
What puzzles me is that you expect anyone to think like you do when you can’t support anything you say with facts.

[Lazarus]

@Gargantua:

Please specify some incidents.

I can think of several, but they are in the 20 to TOPS 100 people range.

Millions of POW’s were never shot.

See this link

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=8034

[Lazarus]

@Col.:

What puzzles me is that you expect anyone to think like you do when you can’t support anything you say with facts.

I am not after converting anyone.
You can lead a horse to water……

[Lazarus]

@Col.:

You posted what you considered to be their opinion,

No.
I posted the actual words. I did not adjust or paraphrase anything.
Your charge is baseless.

@Col.:

then turned there words to fit your cause

Simply untrue. I let he words speak for themselves.
Show me how the following is turned:

In a reference to the Allied commanders, Rundstedt said:
"Montgomery and Patton were the two best that I met

or better still explain how you read it.
Maybe you see something I missed?

[Col. Ty Webb]

“The puzzle for me is the complete inability of many to accept dissent from the herd mindset.”

No, not trying to convert anyone at all to your way of thinking. Once again doing a complete flip flop from one post to the next.

Please show me in that passage where “two best I met” implied any type of equality. See, you are adding your own opinion to their words. That’s like you asking me who were the two best basketball players I’ve ever met, me responding “Michael Jordan and Fred Smith,” and you assuming that they are both equal because I said they were the two best.

The two best teams in the NFL met in the Super Bowl every year, but sometimes those games aren’t all that close.

[Lazarus]

The quote is short and to the point.
Your have � deeply ingrained aversion to anything that puts Monty in a positive light � that drives you to ever more ridiculous claims � about ‘hidden meanings’ or unspoken codicils. � Semantics is not your forte so I advise you not to continue down this path.
The German Generals you put so much store in when they praise Patton are derided for expressing the same view of Monty, why?

Warning:
Edited to correct spelling mistakes. Conspiracy theorists please accept my apology if you have posted a reply in the last minute.

[Guest]

@Lazarus:

The German Generals you put so much store in when they praise Patton are derided for expressing the same view of Monty, why?

The correct form of the attempted sentence is:
Why do you put so much faith in the German generals when they praise Patton, yet you deride them when they express the same view of Monty?

There is to be NO TOLERANCE for incorrect use of the English language on AA.org.

EDIT: apology accepted.

[Gargantua]

@Lazarus:

@Gargantua:

Please specify some incidents.

I can think of several, but they are in the 20 to TOPS 100 people range.

Millions of POW’s were never shot.

See this link

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=8034

Dr. Lazarus,

By your own link, the majority of crimes listed are well under the 1000 casualty mark,  and not the “Millions” mark you presented.

As well,  the bulk of them are considered to be soviet progpoganda,  fabricated to support the war effort.

The Finns were accussed of the same crimes, supposedly making slaves of people, and random executions etc, none of which seemed to be based on real incidents.

Have you found anymore information on these millions of deaths you are reporting?

[KurtGodel7]

In Operation Barbarossa, Germany experienced 200,000 killed or missing; as compared to 700,000 Soviet soldiers killed, and 3.4 million captured. In addition, Germany’s allies experienced 220,000 killed, wounded, or missing. Assuming the ratio of killed:wounded was about the same for Germany’s allies as it was for Germany, that implies that Germany’s allies lost about 55,000 men in Barbarossa. Total Axis losses for the operation were probably around 255,000 killed or missing, compared to 4.1 million Soviet soldiers killed or captured. That’s a better than 15:1 exchange ratio. (Though the ratio of wounded was only 2:1 in Germany’s favor.)

But once again I find myself drifting OT in an attempt to address the confusion Lazarus is attempting to sow. Speaking of which, the video Clyde posted was funny, and spot-on! :)

To return to the subject of most overrated leader, another person who deserves consideration is Mussolini for his role as commander-in-chief of the Italian armed forces. Institutionally, Italy was extremely unprepared for war–which is odd, considering Mussolini’s dreams of a revived Roman Empire.

Mussolini had referred to the Munich meetings as his greatest moment. At that time, Germany and Italy were not yet allies; and it was Germany that was the main beneficiary of the meetings. However, Mussolini spoke French, English, and German, and was therefore able to become the center of attention, especially as people began talking more hurriedly. He seemed more interested in building up his own ego than in exercising the discipline necessary to turn Italy into a real military power. His personality seems similar to Goering’s, in fact.

I realize Mussolini isn’t highly rated as a commander-in-chief to begin with. But is the assessment of him harsh enough?

[Lazarus]

@Gargantua:

The Finns were accussed of the same crimes, supposedly making slaves of people, and random executions etc, none of which seemed to be based on real incidents.

You could not have picked a worse example.
The Finish executions are well documented
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=142778&hilit=

and for Finnish Concentration Camps
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=176121&hilit=

The disadvantage is that the victims were Soviet and thus ( in your eyes) liars about everything.
The truth is the Finish War Crimes are well documented
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=185050&hilit=

[newpaintbrush]

@KurtGodel7:

I realize Mussolini isn’t highly rated as a commander-in-chief to begin with. But is the assessment of him harsh enough?

In order to be over-rated, you need to be on the rating scale to begin with.

[Clyde85]

@Lazarus:

I assure you Lazurus did know.
However Lazarus was unable to see what bearing it had on Goering’s performance in WW2.
Perhaps you could establish the link so Lazarus can see his error?

Dear Cousin,
We could use a torch as bring as the sun and show you a mirror as reflective as a placid lake and still you would not see the errors of your ways. You display the same stubborn hubris that lead us to slaughter on the river Slaney! I’m afraid you leave me no other choice but to once again ignore you completely if we are to salvage any sort of meaningful conversation out of this.

I encourage the rest of you to do the same, to not play into his game, and do not lower yourself down to his level, continue the actually , meaningful, conversation some of us are maintaining and ignore the Trolls poo flinging.

[trackmagic]

This thread delivers!

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1014&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=pv4bjtPWHwFwpM:&imgrefurl=http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/This-Thread-Delivers/&docid=2RvsTzIl1STTVM&imgurl=http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/This-Thread-Delivers/1/normal_thisthreaddelivers1rk5.jpg&w=400&h=300&ei=dZ6tT6_YJqqsiAKRwfGKBA&zoom=1

[Deaths Head 420]

for those that won’t use the link  :roll:

[trackmagic]

Thanks, I was trying to figure out how to post pictures (seems like it should not be that hard) I gave up and posted a link.