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Sealion G1 - Economic Warfare
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I have never tried Sealion because it just seemed like it would be a lose lose in the long term. I’ve been giving it a lot of thought to make Sealion feasible and decided to go economic warfare route.
Can you see what I did here?
IC damaged 11, AB fully out at 6
UK Turn one probably losing $10 to repair AB and IC enough to place units. That’s 3 less inf they can place.
If Germany is going G3 Sealion, UK might not be able to place anything turn 2, give or take. Germany prob going G2 to at least take out as much as they can for the much larger fleet on G3
If you are UK, how do you respond in your first turn?
- Do you do Taranto? How many planes from UK?
- Are you going Middle Earth?
- Do you activate Greece?
- Do you keep all fighters on London, move Scotland down, etc and buy ftr/inf?
- What about the trans/destroyer off Canada? Does the destroyer escort the transport to land in London or Scotland? And do you ignore the sub or declare war?
- Anything else?
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In this play I did not scramble into SZ 110.
I just rolled the scramble to see the difference. Scramble, Germany loses its battleship and two fighters - UK has to take 3 hits. So 1 BB, 1 FT, 1 Damaged BB, 2 Ft, 3 FT. Any of the options has to make UK nervous.
Scramble makes Sealion easier because at least one fighter gone.
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I’m messing around with rolls, jumping ahead to G2 and assuming UK bought all inf, and kept 4 ftr in London.
What I learned, if attacking London G2, do not bring the planes.
Send the SBR to IC, and two tacs to AB - I rolled those out to see what would happen = IC: 17 damage, AB: 6 damage (assuming they were at 5 and 2 prior after paying off round 1)
so I sent 3 tanks, 3 inf, with 2 offshore bombardment.
I got 5 hits, UK 3. Germany lose the 3 inf, and retreat. the 5 AA guns removed from London - great for G3 attack.
Not exactly sure how retreats work with amphibious landings - I assume they just hang out on the transports
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I forgot about the convoys. Just rolled those out (2 and 4 dice) and hit the 8 max.
so UK down to $20 for turn two, IC at 17 damage, AB at 6 damage. UK only able to place 1 unit if they repair AB.
I’m messing around with different UK responses and rolling - London gets steamrolled turn 3 with this strategy with 15-17 ground units on London. Full Taranto and G2 is possible with good dice.
I like Sealion now
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@dazedwit I may misunderstand the map, but it looks to me that the french cruiser survived in 110. If that is the case I thought there may be a rule issue here. When the Germans attack 110, all the allied units there are engaged and the french cruiser would likley be the first allied casualty.
I also don’t understand why there are additional French units in Southern France.I see you were asking about retreating and amphibious landings. The rule is that units that land amphibiously are not allowed to retreat So they continue fighting until destroyed.
The Germans attack 109, 110, and 111 and do a bombing but don’t appear to take any casualties. That is not at all a likely result. I’m not clear how many air units engage in teh bombardment but to get that result reliably you are going to need two bombers and two tacs and hope that the AA misses. To have the bombers and even one tac go for London instead of the fleet, means that the axis are very unlikely to win both 110 and 111 with a scramble. If the Germans bring enough to win 110 as well, they can’t bring enough to win 111 and vice versa. And the allies can also scramble to 109 without risk since the subs can’t hit air.
The reason that Sea Lion is often not hte best Axis move is not because its hard to take London. If they really commit, its hard for the allies to stop it. But the problem is that all that spending on carriers and transports means that Germany isn’t spending money on the units it needs to stop the Soviets.
I’ll just say more generally, one of the options that the allies have in stopping a sea lion is stacking their med fleet at 92 along with air, (bringing the land units on Malta to Gibraltar). This may requre an air base being built on Gibraltar as well and some air from London coming down to support. But that is probably only an answer to a more likely G1 outcome.
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Wtf ist this even? Why would a GB Player Scramble the fighters in London, If your also sending the Strabos to Attack the IC ? Any normal functioning brain doesnt scramble and sends those fighters to intercept the Bombers. So your Opener relies on the opponent Not hitting with 2 Fighter + the AA of the IC also gets to shoot 1 round. What happens to your “strategy” If both Bombers Just die, without hitting the IC for even 1 DMG ?!?!? Dogshitz.
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@Seath said in Sealion G1 - Economic Warfare:
Wtf ist this even? Why would a GB Player Scramble the fighters in London, If your also sending the Strabos to Attack the IC ? Any normal functioning brain doesnt scramble and sends those fighters to intercept the Bombers. So your Opener relies on the opponent Not hitting with 2 Fighter + the AA of the IC also gets to shoot 1 round. What happens to your “strategy” If both Bombers Just die, without hitting the IC for even 1 DMG ?!?!? Dogshitz.
Why would you not scramble? The 3 fighters will be attacking at least 2x @4 so that is a lot more damage then 1x @6.
Also since the attacks against 110 and 111 are weaker you might actually win 1 or both saving a BB and killing a huge part of the luftwaffen.There is still a decent chance AA will kill at least 1 of the bombers and saving a BB is worth 20ipcs which is a lot more then 2 bombers can do in damage.
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@shadowhawk when the fighters Scramble the Bombers can freely Hit the IC? Thats why. Also the ships are already “lost” the Moment your setting Up the Board. Why waiste your starting fighters? So you get 1-2 more Kills in German Tacbomber? Better to Take the Chance of Killing of a StraBo + preventing Bombimg DMG than to safe a Ship.
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good call. the blue boat blended in with the blue water. I’ll redo this
It wasn’t that I had no casualties, I just had few casualties. My sub attacks each picked off at least one boat which was nice. 110 was a bit dicey as UK took out the two fighters. (never mind the French boat that was invisible). I was expecting to lose three fighters, two subs, and a damaged battleship. I lost two fighters. I just rolled and took what came which was Germany crushing it round 1. I know that’s not likely to happen every time but I love the results for this thread - to show how vulnerable UK now is. If you guys like I can put a couple UK boats back on and take another pic and then again ask, how does UK respond?
For this strategy I’m working on, it’s okay if any UK boats survive - I"m just trying to knock out most of them, which I believe is very doable removing two SBR and two Tacs from the naval battle. Whatever survives will gone turn two unless they take them out to the Atlantic.
I didn’t start this thread to argue about battles - I’ve never seen anyone go full economic warfare G1. I think this cripples UK. Turn one, they are placing at least two less inf, maybe 3. Italy1 their bomber hits the IC. G2, the two SBR hit the IC again - which should be at max 20 damage. And keep the AB at full damage to discourage scrambles if possible, but the IC is most important.
20 damage IC, and losing 8 to convoy - UK can place 2 inf, round 2 (1 if they repair the AB).
I want your opinions on how UK should respond to how the board looks now. Without playing any other countries I was rolling fake battles for rounds 2 & 3 based on UK doing different things. UK is crippled turn one - and Japan not doing J1 so USA can’t rescue.
If my math is right, this tactic removes 10 inf from London (over two turns). That makes Sealion easy with plenty of land units left in London for Germany
Are you doing Taranto?
Are you buying nothing but inf, getting a ftr turn 1?
Are you going Middle Earth?
What can you do with your Med fleet to help save the day, anything?
How does UK and the allies respond to this G1 attack - that is what I am looking for in this thread.
I think common tactic is for US to build 3 fully loaded AC, place them in 102 turn two, and then hope to take out the German boats turn 3?
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@Seath said in Sealion G1 - Economic Warfare:
@shadowhawk when the fighters Scramble the Bombers can freely Hit the IC? Thats why. Also the ships are already “lost” the Moment your setting Up the Board. Why waiste your starting fighters? So you get 1-2 more Kills in German Tacbomber? Better to Take the Chance of Killing of a StraBo + preventing Bombimg DMG than to safe a Ship.
The Factory also has AA guns, so there is still the 2x @1 chance of hitting the 2 strat bombers. Which also are targeted so its a guaranteed strat. Doing air defence you have an extra 3x @1 but germany also has 3x @1 and if you bit you only hit the tactical bomber anyway,
Bombers and tacts also shoot back @1 so you run as much chance losing a fighter in the air defence.Also with 2 bombers and 1 strat out of the picture your 3 fighters in 110 will have much better odds at saving the BB or at least making more hits then just 3.
Unless he goes all out with the rest in 110 but then you save your fleet in 111 and 109. If he splits both attacks are pretty weak so most likely will go 3 rounds. Thats is 3x @4 your fighters shoot thats 2 kills each. Far better then maby 1 tactical bomber. -
@dazedwit said in Sealion G1 - Economic Warfare:
good call. the blue boat blended in with the blue water. I’ll redo this
It wasn’t that I had no casualties, I just had few casualties. My sub attacks each picked off at least one boat which was nice. 110 was a bit dicey as UK took out the two fighters. (never mind the French boat that was invisible). I was expecting to lose three fighters, two subs, and a damaged battleship. I lost two fighters. I just rolled and took what came which was Germany crushing it round 1. I know that’s not likely to happen every time but I love the results for this thread - to show how vulnerable UK now is. If you guys like I can put a couple UK boats back on and take another pic and then again ask, how does UK respond?
For this strategy I’m working on, it’s okay if any UK boats survive - I"m just trying to knock out most of them, which I believe is very doable removing two SBR and two Tacs from the naval battle. Whatever survives will gone turn two unless they take them out to the Atlantic.
I didn’t start this thread to argue about battles - I’ve never seen anyone go full economic warfare G1. I think this cripples UK. Turn one, they are placing at least two less inf, maybe 3. Italy1 their bomber hits the IC. G2, the two SBR hit the IC again - which should be at max 20 damage. And keep the AB at full damage to discourage scrambles if possible, but the IC is most important.
20 damage IC, and losing 8 to convoy - UK can place 2 inf, round 2 (1 if they repair the AB).
I want your opinions on how UK should respond to how the board looks now. Without playing any other countries I was rolling fake battles for rounds 2 & 3 based on UK doing different things. UK is crippled turn one - and Japan not doing J1 so USA can’t rescue.
If my math is right, this tactic removes 10 inf from London (over two turns). That makes Sealion easy with plenty of land units left in London for Germany
Are you doing Taranto?
Are you buying nothing but inf, getting a ftr turn 1?
Are you going Middle Earth?
What can you do with your Med fleet to help save the day, anything?
How does UK and the allies respond to this G1 attack - that is what I am looking for in this thread.
I think common tactic is for US to build 3 fully loaded AC, place them in 102 turn two, and then hope to take out the German boats turn 3?
Well having exceptional dice does make the argument a bit weird. Having a lot of luck in a roll does change every game. Sometimes even France stays alive G1, yes it happens even if you dont gamble as germany.
But your defence in 110 should be at least 2 cruisers and 1 BB so unless both subs hit all 3 will shoot back.
Also you can scramble 3 fighters, the french fighter can also scramble.You didnt mention with what you where attacking both 110 and 111 so its a bit hard to judge based only on the results. You could have attacked with just fleet and won with just insane dice.
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I’m going to reset this up since I forgot the French boat. I’m going after both fleets very light because I want both SB and Tacs to SBR and two subs need to be in that London convoy zone. The convoy zone in Scotland not necessary but I think that’s the only thing that one sub can do besides attacking the destroyer/tran in Canada
Maybe Germany fares very poorly this time. That’s fine. I go heavier on the Scotland fleet - so that should be gone, possibly a damaged battleship if bad dice. The London fleet is very light, and that’s fine - I’m not trying to eliminate that fleet as much as take out as much as I can turn 1, and leave the rest for turn two. I’m totally focused on economic warfare for this strategy.
I’m going to set it up many times and run it so I’ll get the average of what to expect and what to expect round 2 as a result and so on.
This is a solo game (strategy really as I may not play entire game) so I want feedback on how Allies will respond - so I don’t have to play this 100 times to test out every possible response. Playing solo, I know what I’m doing against myself so there are no surprises.
I love this game but playing the same strategy over and over can get boring. So I"m on a tear this week coming up with out of the box strategies that I’ve never seen before - and I assume no one else has.
In a real game, if I used this strategy effectively I plan to get 6th VC turn 6 - no Moscow, no Stalingrad. No one would see that coming.
This thread is about German economic warfare so I won’t go into Japan strategy that will pair with this.
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@dazedwit as shadowhawk notes, this is not a likely outcome of G1. If 2 bombers and 2 tacs are going to London and you are splitting your remaining units between 109,110, an 111, you are normally going to lose most of your German ships and air. Depending on how the remaining forces are distributed between those zones, I would certainly scramble 2 if not 3 of those zones and normally the British will have some units survive and the Germans will take significant losses, making Sea Lion much harder. Assuming no air goes to 109, an even distribution of the remaining German air between 111 and 110 ( and an additional sub in 110), the Germans have about 10% odds in 110 and 45% in 111. The average outcome is that 2 British battleship and 2 figs survive and all German units are destroyed.
If you are going for Sea Lion, you also don’t need the strat bombing G1. Its better to be sure that you have destroyed the fleets in 110 and 111 (hopefully without losing much air). You have anohter opportunity for a strat bombing on G2 and likely don’t need to spread your forces that thin to do so.
If British navy survives, and Germany loses fleet and air (which is the most likely outcome of your opening attacks) Sea Lion will be much harder. The British can put a blocker to deny the Germans access to 109 and stack navy (supported by a scramble) in 110. That will mean that much of the German air that you would want to support the assault on UK has to commit to 110 instead.
If Germany is going all in on sea lion, than the British should try to stop it or make it as costly as possible. So likely all inf although with a possibility of an AB in Gibraltar if necessary to allow the med fleet to stack 92. That gives you additional air and land units (which will more than make up for what you spend on the AB) but also allows you to stack 110 with fleet on UK2, which forces Germany to again commit air to 110 that they otherwise would need for the UK.
I’ll also just note that tehre are opportunities here to play online including in league play (which is fairly relaxed). Worth checking out as it gives opportunities to try strategies against other players.
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@dazedwit said in Sealion G1 - Economic Warfare:
I’m going to reset this up since I forgot the French boat. I’m going after both fleets very light because I want both SB and Tacs to SBR and two subs need to be in that London convoy zone. The convoy zone in Scotland not necessary but I think that’s the only thing that one sub can do besides attacking the destroyer/tran in Canada
Maybe Germany fares very poorly this time. That’s fine. I go heavier on the Scotland fleet - so that should be gone, possibly a damaged battleship if bad dice. The London fleet is very light, and that’s fine - I’m not trying to eliminate that fleet as much as take out as much as I can turn 1, and leave the rest for turn two. I’m totally focused on economic warfare for this strategy.
I’m going to set it up many times and run it so I’ll get the average of what to expect and what to expect round 2 as a result and so on.
This is a solo game (strategy really as I may not play entire game) so I want feedback on how Allies will respond - so I don’t have to play this 100 times to test out every possible response. Playing solo, I know what I’m doing against myself so there are no surprises.
I love this game but playing the same strategy over and over can get boring. So I"m on a tear this week coming up with out of the box strategies that I’ve never seen before - and I assume no one else has.
In a real game, if I used this strategy effectively I plan to get 6th VC turn 6 - no Moscow, no Stalingrad. No one would see that coming.
This thread is about German economic warfare so I won’t go into Japan strategy that will pair with this.
Please before you do. just type what your attack consist off.
So 110, what are you attacking with, 111 what are you attacking with
Because dice can really change your perspective it would be nice to have before and after combat.
But i think you really overestimate your chance of doing any real damage to the UK economy. Your 2 subs wont live past round 1 because the UK can sink them in 109. Destroyer from canada + airforce -> exit subs.
Most of your air is gone and UK will have a decent size fleet left, or with luck its mutual destruction. I dont have to repair much, your estimated damage to the factory is 10ipcs. So i can repair 2 and build 2 fighters and still have room left in the budget for units in afrika. Its not like you will attack the home islands anyway. -
@farmboy said in Sealion G1 - Economic Warfare:
@dazedwit as shadowhawk notes, this is not a likely outcome of G1. If 2 bombers and 2 tacs are going to London and you are splitting your remaining units between 109,110, an 111, you are normally going to lose most of your German ships and air. Depending on how the remaining forces are distributed between those zones, I would certainly scramble 2 if not 3 of those zones and normally the British will have some units survive and the Germans will take significant losses, making Sea Lion much harder. Assuming no air goes to 109, an even distribution of the remaining German air between 111 and 110 ( and an additional sub in 110), the Germans have about 10% odds in 110 and 45% in 111. The average outcome is that 2 British battleship and 2 figs survive and all German units are destroyed.
If you are going for Sea Lion, you also don’t need the strat bombing G1. Its better to be sure that you have destroyed the fleets in 110 and 111 (hopefully without losing much air). You have anohter opportunity for a strat bombing on G2 and likely don’t need to spread your forces that thin to do so.
If British navy survives, and Germany loses fleet and air (which is the most likely outcome of your opening attacks) Sea Lion will be much harder. The British can put a blocker to deny the Germans access to 109 and stack navy (supported by a scramble) in 110. That will mean that much of the German air that you would want to support the assault on UK has to commit to 110 instead.
If Germany is going all in on sea lion, than the British should try to stop it or make it as costly as possible. So likely all inf although with a possibility of an AB in Gibraltar if necessary to allow the med fleet to stack 92. That gives you additional air and land units (which will more than make up for what you spend on the AB) but also allows you to stack 110 with fleet on UK2, which forces Germany to again commit air to 110 that they otherwise would need for the UK.
I’ll also just note that tehre are opportunities here to play online including in league play (which is fairly relaxed). Worth checking out as it gives opportunities to try strategies against other players.
Good luck doing sea lion if UK still has 2 function fleets and an airforce and you got nearly no airforce left. Might even kill your fleet and taranto on UK1 and get any hopes of sailing the high seas out of the european axis minds.
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Here I made a video of the G1 battles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pIQIBU3EX8
I put a lot more thought into this time
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I restarted the game and this time filmed it so you can see all the great dice and all the bad dice. I’m going to finish the game before sharing the YouTube playlist of my game.
For now, I need advice on what US should do on turn 3. Here is what the world looks like at the end of J3. US built on Atlantic to deal with Sealion. But now Japan is in North America - do you send the AC’s through the Panama Canal to the west coast or what do you do in response to this world?
These are just pics. If anyone wants to argue that this is impossible lucky dice or whatever, you can just watch me roll on YouTube
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SZ 109 scramble the scotland fighter. Good odds of killing both subs there.
SZ 110 your odds of winning are slim at best.
2 cruiser 1 BB + 3 fighters vs 3 fighters 3 tactials.
Yea you take out 1 fighter but you lose a lot more
Using low luck for comparison here.
round 1 Defender 22 defence, attacker 21 offense, lets give both 3 hits here.
round 2 Defender 14 defence, attacker 11 offense,
So UK is left with a BB and 1 figher all attackers killed.Sure you do win 111 combat, the battleship is there damaged and i got an undamaged BB.
Sure you do some economic damage ill repair 3 buy 2 fighers and 1 inf.
Now I got a fleet of 1 BB 1 cruiser 1 destroyer in 109 with 3 figher scramble.
Ill still do taranto and clear the med.Or alternativaly ill destroy your carrier + cruiser + all transports
I only got 2 fighers 1 bomber 1 battleship and 1 cruiser, you got 1 full carrier + cruiser. So well guess sea lion isnt happening.Ofcourse im assuming we both got average dice,.
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I set up the board and recorded the strategy. Sealion was a smashing success with Germany keeping all their planes, 9 tanks, 3 art, and two inf. The conquering army was so large I then sent it to DC
I’m on J6. Germany will get it’s 8th VC on turn 7
I’ll post it here so you can all watch and see how you all have been doing Sealion wrong all this time.
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Just because you for some reason have insane dice, or you dont know how to play the allies does not make the strat that good.
Just play it out using low luck so you get a fair estimate of how the battles will go, it does elimitate the luck factor a lot.
And like i posted, you are verry likely not having any fleet at all round 2 with both germany and italy so how will you do sea lion without a fleet? Naked transports will be easy pickings.
BTW if you use 4 color dies, which is really smart you could get the 5mm dice so you can throw about 120 in 1 go. Just in case you need to handle big combat.
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