France's role in Global 1940 SE

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@SuperbattleshipYamato

I played a game as the Allies against the Hard AI with out of box rules and removed everything from France before the first turn, including all facilities in their territories (losing the facilities probably hurt the Axis more than the Allies). The British troops in Paris stayed, however.

I won as the Allies.

Granted, the AI’s play as Japan was a disaster (it’s generally a tough country to play and other AIs have performed even worse), but I made my fair share of mistakes out of carelessness and rushing, and their play as Germany and Italy was mostly solid.

The lack of French troops allowed Germany to declare war on the Soviets G1 and advance quite quickly. The Soviets were definitely in danger of collapsing the first 10 turns were it not for massive amounts of support from the British. Still, the Allies barely weathered the storm and were able to slowly push the European Axis back, with the US making frequent-large scale landings on the Western Front, eventually capturing Rome (the Axis navies and air forces in Europe were negligible). The UK did not participate in many landings, focusing their efforts on a successful strategic bombing campaign and continuing to funnel troops onto the Eastern Front from industrial complexes in Egypt and the Union of South Africa, where they ended up doing 30-40% of the fighting there.

Thanks to the aforementioned poor Japanese play, UK Pacific and China steadily dismantled the Japanese presence in Asia, while the Allies achieved dominance in the Pacific within the first 10 turns.

Overall, while the Allies were able to win without France, the loss of all those units hurt the Allies more than expected. In a competent player’s hands I think the Germans had a better than even shot of capturing Moscow early on.

Full game:

Global 1940 no France Game 1.tsvg

[FranceNeedsMorePower]

@SuperbattleshipYamato Very interesting. I will have to test it out to.

[The Janus]

Stupid question of the day:

In the TripleA version, after France loses their capitol, any French territories liberated from the Axis by the other allies become controlled by that ally (i,e. not liberated to French ownership.) FWIW, I’ve seen this happen with the USSR territories if Moscow falls, too.

Is this intended, in the out-of-box rules? or is this just a TripleA-ism?

I mention it here because my strategy as France involves trying to balance out, “How can I maintain as many of my infantry as possible/inflict the most casualties/take the fewest losses?” with “Actually, just let the Italians have the territory, so the Americans can get the IPCs for it later.”

Like, if I know the Italian transports are in a position to just dogpile me if I push all my infantry east, I’ll pull them west instead, for sure. If the transports are too far away, I’ll try and move up – but I don’t actually want to move too far east…?

And this mechanic actually dovetails into the fact that it seems better for the US to try and hold the factories in coastal France (to place units immediately on the front line) than it is to give all that land back to France – or possibly just bypass France altogether and try to land in Greece (a favourite of mine, for example). You could argue that this simulates the “Battle of the Bulge” (or something… I guess…) but it does just seem to reinforce the fact that having France as an active ally isn’t really a value add, and is actually a detriment in the later game.

[barnee]

@The-Janus

yea triplea does it correctly

A reason why a lot of people don’t liberate France in the OOB version :)

[crockett36]

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

@SuperbattleshipYamato Very interesting. I will have to test it out to.

Did you give France goes first a try?

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@crockett36

Yes, a while ago. I can’t find the TripleA file now (my files are like a maze), but I think the Axis won, though the change did make the Allies more competitive compared to out of box rules.

[FranceNeedsMorePower]

@The-Janus I think it is out of the box

[The Janus]

So I did a test run where I actually focused on liberating France, and even tried to feed them some extra territories once I did so (rather than have US or UK take everything.)

Oof, even when France is back on their feet, they don’t have enough income to really do much. Would it help to give them some national objectives, to pad their economy (not unlike what Italy gets)?

[Tamer of Beasts]

@The-Janus In my experience, if the Allies have consistent control of Paris (long enough for France to consider purchases), the game is essentially over. If Germany is weak enough that Paris is taken and held, then France’s economy really doesn’t need a boost, IMHO. I get that it is more fun to buy expensive units, but it simply would be kicking Germany while it is down.

That said, if you have a good European game as the Allies but a crappy situation in the Pacific, maybe something can be considered, but the French really cannot do much about the Pacific.

[FranceNeedsMorePower]

@The-Janus That’s a fantastic idea! Do you have any ideas of what they could be?

[PGsquig]

@Tamer-of-Beasts I totally agree. If France is buying units, Germany has already lost.

[The Janus]

@FranceNeedsMorePower
So one interesting thing that happened in my game is that the UK and Italy managed to kill each other off, in Italian Somaliland; just for yuks, I had France take the territory, since it’s not worth any IPCs anyway – so it wouldn’t be a detriment to the Allies.

Anyway, maybe France should get an extra 1 or 2 IPCs for any Axis territories they hold? Or a bonus for controlling all territories surrounding Switzerland? Maybe bonuses for France controlling or having units in pro-Allied territories? (I find rallying the French into Northwest Persia as sort of an obvious helpful deterrent to the Germans.)

One thing I’ve also noticed in my games is that there seems to be a tipping point, where once the Axis can’t really reach any of the ‘true neutrals’, the Allies are better off gobbling them up – Spain and Turkey (at least positionally) come to mind, in particular. Maybe give France a bonus if Spain and/or Portugal are still neutral?

[The Janus]

@PGsquig
I’ve had a game or two where the USSR get’s KO’d and the UK/US have to try and pry a victory out of the jaws of defeat.
In that context, I could see a scenario where Germany is going so hard after the USSR and the middle east that the Allies manage to actually prop up France and get her back into the game.
But if USSR is still alive when France gets reactivated, I would agree that Germany is probably already cooked; in that case, I’d still be curious to see if France could do anything interesting on the Pacific board :)

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@The-Janus

Good ideas.

[The Janus]

@The-Janus said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

(I find rallying the French into Northwest Persia as sort of an obvious helpful deterrent to the Germans.)

To expand on this a little bit…
I tend to try and get my French infantry from London down into Africa, ASAP (usually using a UK transport, but sometimes US – just depends on what happens in the game.) After that, I try and rally French units towards Egypt, and basically just defend the port until the other Allies clear the Mediterranean.

If you’re trying to support the USSR without putting units in their territory (and thus infringing on their national objective, if they still hold Archangel) Northwest Persia is the obvious place to park 6(ish) French infantry + 1 fighter. They can also be moved up into the Caucasus territory, if that N.O. is not longer a consideration.

If the USSR is in a really bad way, what I’m finding is that the best way for the UK to bail out that situation is to secure the Kazakhstan front; if France is defending the Caucasus (with maybe US tanks racing in, to help) this makes it a little easier. As the UK, you can do this by having 2 transports in the Indian ocean and a harbor in Persia, or by cycling 3 transports between Persia, Egypt, and South Africa (assuming you only want to move 2 infantry at a time; if you want to ship a 3rd unit from South Africa, then you’d need more transports, obviously. If I’m not using that factory to put out transports, I typically just place a tank there and have it drive north, towards Egypt.)

By landing in Eastern Persia, the British are able to insulate India a bit, as well as march up the back wall of the USSR; this is important because of the national objective for controlling Novosibirsk (in 2nd Edition, anyway.) Then the USSR can focus on their core strength, which is trading and defending territories adjacent to Moscow, while holding onto Volgograd for as long as possible. If the UK is also funneling troops into Scandinavia, you can eventually link these up with forces coming through Kazakhstan, to help push the Germans out of Novgorod.

Regarding the French destroyer at Madagascar (I should mention, only in the Europe game, rather than Global) I’ve tended to move this to the Atlantic rather than the Indian Ocean or Mediterranean. If the US is going heavy on carriers or the UK is going more for submarines, having that one French destroyer in the mix can help ensure you can target enemy subs – I’ve occasionally mis-bought as the US while German subs are still lurking around, so being able to move this destroyer to the US east coast for defense can be handy.

[FranceNeedsMorePower]

@The-Janus You got a lot of good ideas by chance did you every watch his video I made. It talks about France.

Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/I0nxyB3JwAk?si=K0GHmYXuijhuSVDA

[The Janus]

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

@The-Janus You got a lot of good ideas by chance did you every watch his video I made. It talks about France.

Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/I0nxyB3JwAk?si=K0GHmYXuijhuSVDA

I just went back through this thread earlier today, so I had copied the link, and watched it just now. Here are my overall thoughts:

1. UK fighter: Generally I don’t scramble planes, ever; in a recent game I saw the Ai send some undefended transports, so I took the option to scramble, then. In the early naval battles around the UK, it just never seems worth it, because the scrambled planes can’t retreat from combat so they’re basically doomed to die.
2. North Africa: I tend to see the Ai axis take Tunisia but then back off; as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it seems like the thing to do as France is back off as far away from the Italian transports as possible, and add French units from the UK there as well; this basically means defending Morocco until the US/UK can land to reinforce the position. If you push everything into Algeria (assuming the Italians leave Tunisia alone, at first) I worry that they’ll get dogpiled by an amphibious landing; Morocco is a lot safer.
3. Egypt/East Africa: I don’t typically see the Italians break into central Africa, but just in case they do, I always move the French infantry from West Africa to Nigeria, rather than to French Central Africa. This might be a little bit superstitious of me, but basically, as a general rule I want to leave French territories undefended, so that they can potentially be reclaimed by my Allies, if Italy captures them.
4. Madagascar: As I said, I tend to send the destroyer to the Atlantic; I don’t find much use in keeping a large fleet in/around Suez. If the Allies can’t challenge the Italian navy in the Mediterranean, they’re best off hiding behind the canal; you only really need enough navy to fend off any planes from sniping UK transports. If there aren’t any Axis planes within range, then I just run the transports naked. What I tend to see happen in my games is that the US and UK built up around Gibraltar, and if the Italian fleet is in range of both those fleets and the Suez fleet, then the UK fleets merge up for an attack. (As I’ve mentioned in this thread: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/post/1696439 I know it’s popular for the UK to use their planes for a Taranto attack ASAP, but I tend not to.) I also tend not to build ships off of South Africa, aside from a transport or two – sometimes more, if I get in a position to start shuttling guys from the middle east into Greece.
5. Indochina: I think the obvious reason there isn’t a French infantry there to start the game, is because the Pacific game on its own can then easily have no French pieces, no? I think if it makes sense and/or makes the game better balanced, I don’t see any objection to adding it for the Global game. IMO that’s basically the same idea as how the Global game adds ANZAC infantry to Egypt. (I think if you wanted to represent the French in Indochina when using just the Pacific game, the obvious thing to do would be use an American infantry; they’ll be long dead before any “real” Americans show up, anyway.)
6. Mediterranean: Now, perhaps because I don’t do the Taranto raid, I see my French ships in the Mediterranean usually get wiped out on the Italian turn – so i tend to discount them from my planning. If any of them do survive, I treat it as a bonus (likewise for the Channel ship) and just try to merge them up with my other destroyer. To me, Gibraltar (SZ 91) is the obvious rallying point for the allied fleets. (edit: That being said, on the first turn I oftentimes send the UK fleets to sz 106, off of eastern Canada, to rally up and drop down a new carrier for existing fighters to land on. That way they’re well out of range of the Luftwaffe.)
7. Paris: I tend to play pretty old-school, so when I make a landing in Europe as the US, it’s generally all infantry with some planes; not that I expect France to have much to do at that point in the game, but I don’t agree that adding more French infantry for defense is the obvious move. I think if you want France sniping as much territory as they can manage when the opportunities arise (particularly if US/UK are doing can-opener type moves, for them) you might want to mix in another offensive unit, to go with your starting fighter. Generally I don’t change the default 4 inf in TripleA, but once I get France up and running, I always immediately feel like I need tanks or artillery, or else I’m just going to be sitting around defending – like France has been, all game.
8. Psychological Warfare: It depends on your opponent; if it’s someone who’s running every battle through a calculator, they’re probably not going to be fooled or have any surprises pulled on them. If you’re playing “live” and people are just eyeballing things, then sure.
9. Can-opening as France: I think the trouble is that most of the time, you’re going to (at best) be attacking with 2 infantry and a fighter. So you’re only really going to win a battle vs. 1 defender. And if you get hit back, suddenly you’re completely out of steam for basically the remainder of the game. I honestly feel it’s better to have French units as a mixed defending force, than trying to use them offensively, particularly since taking territory (even by accident) as France is a detriment to the Allies. (For example: it’s better to have the US land a 50/50 tank/inf force in Morocco, if it’s defended by a handful of French infantry + a fighter; otherwise, the US would want to go heavier on infantry and not risk exposing their tanks.) You make a valid point about opening up Tobruk for mech/tanks to break through; do you often see the UK push coming from that direction, with those types of units? I tend to see everything flowing in from Morocco.