Yes, it’s in the FAQ.
http://www.wizards.com/AvalonHill/rules/AA_Pacific_1940_2nd_Edition_FAQ.pdf
The new SBR system
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Quick question : can allied fighters participate in the defense of a bombed IC?
Yes.
The intercept part of the escort/intercept rule.
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I don’t like the rule about 20 IPC max damage on a major, with 6 max on a minor
I would rather have 3 minors with 9 units placed and a 18 IPC cap and 3 times the AA gun firepower potentially vs one big target placing 10 units but getting 20 IPC damaged. Spread out the attackers and have them attack three different targets seems a better tactic.
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but sometimes, you need those 10 productions points!! Also, 3 minor, although less expensive to repair, could be spread around the map. Which leads to some sort of disadvantage. Of course, being spread around the map is also good. Having a germany IC in Africa, for example, could very well help Italy
Robert
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@Brain:
The old rule sucks. It’s practically a free pass to take away your IPC’s
Bombers are a very effective weapon. If you are going to bomb an industrial site you are going to do some damage. The Antiaircraft and defending fighter planes will never take out all the bombers. A bomber in this game represents a large amount of aircraft. Besides that “free pass” does very little damage unless we are talking about 4 or more bombers.
Am I really the only one here that thinks this new system is completely unrealistic. It was only added for more complexity to appease the diehards. I think the AA gun represents both the fighter defenses and the AA fire very well. I don’t have to see a fighter going after a bomber to feel like it is more real. This new system does make the risk outweigh the reward. I would love to see someone do an SBR on me if I have a couple fighters with my complex.
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but escorts are not affected by AA (I haven’t read the rules to be honest, waiting for the game)
so if the other player send ALOT of plane to protect the bombers, are you going to try to put up a fight? Germany can’t hold all her planes in Germany… They are needed against Russia, to defend France (I’m assuming that Germany will only keep inf + fig stack in France)
You know, the Fig escort/interceptor thing could become another battleground. A country like USA could be busy building up a fleet. Meanwhile, he could send bombers + fig to SBR Europe. Even if defending interceptor hit better, if the attacker has a large amount of escort, this can become very tricky. Does Germany want to risk losing fighter in the defense of his IC?
Of course, its all theorical. Will need to play some game before being able to put up any conclusions on whether it is good or not
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Razor think it is optional for the defender to commit interceptors. If you dont want to give extra protection to your factory, or port, or airfield, then just dont do it. Let the facility’s AA-gun defend the facility. Nobody force you to commit interceptors. It is the defender’s decision.
Razor also urge you to take in account that the dogfight between escorts and interceptors are one round only. And after this one round, all fighters retreat from combat. No escort fighters will be exposed to AA-fire.
If the defender commit 2 interceptors, that defend on 2 or less, it is not very likely they will hit anything.
In this case the attacker may commit 1 escort just to absorb a possible hit, so his bomber get through.If your territory are both attacked and SBR’ed at the same time, it is better use of the fighters to defend on 4 or less in multiple rounds, than defend on 2 or less for one round. Butt Razor not sure, must figure.
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but escorts are not affected by AA (I haven’t read the rules to be honest, waiting for the game)
so if the other player send ALOT of plane to protect the bombers, are you going to try to put up a fight? Germany can’t hold all her planes in Germany… They are needed against Russia, to defend France (I’m assuming that Germany will only keep inf + fig stack in France)
You know, the Fig escort/interceptor thing could become another battleground. A country like USA could be busy building up a fleet. Meanwhile, he could send bombers + fig to SBR Europe. Even if defending interceptor hit better, if the attacker has a large amount of escort, this can become very tricky. Does Germany want to risk losing fighter in the defense of his IC?
Of course, its all theorical. Will need to play some game before being able to put up any conclusions on whether it is good or not
My point is if you lose even 1 escort fighter the SBR was a loss IPC wise to you. With Defenders rolling a 2 for a hit that is too much risk. Unless of course you are throwing double the amount of escort fighters against the defending fighters then the odds are even because you can now destroy a 10ipc fighter as well. But lets face it you are not going to be wasting valuable fighter planes on a less valuable SBR when you can you can use it for more valuble missions destroying units during regular combat. You get 1 roll per SBR at 1 to hit compared to multiple rolls during regular combat at 3 to hit.
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@Krupp:
So say i had 2 fighters in Germany and the British were running a SBR with 3 fighters and 2 bombers.
Do the British escorting aircraft have to kill the enemy planes before the bombers can continue their run, and attempt to pass through the respective AA fire?
Say the British player attacks with his fighters,no hits. The German interceptors score 2 hits,so does the British player lose 2 fighters and can then decide to retreat without further losses?
Actually it is Kevins job to answer, butt since you will give Razor + karma, I’ll do it.
Remember one round of combat. Three brit escorts roll 3 dice, no hits. Two german interceptors roll 2 dice, both hits. End of dogfight. All surviving fighters retreat. All surviving bombers continue to SBR.
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@Flying:
My point is if you lose even 1 escort fighter the SBR was a loss IPC wise to you. With Defenders rolling a 2 for a hit that is too much risk.
Who says the target facility is a factory ? Perhaps you want to destroy a port or an airfield, in order to deny your enemy to repair his two damaged battleships, or deny him to launch paratroopers in his next turn, or you want to attack his fleet and dont want his fighters on the adjacent island to join. Razor can think of lots of stratecig situations where he will be happy to sacrifice a 10 IPC fighter to a bigger cause.
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@Flying:
Am I really the only one here that thinks this new SBR system is completely unrealistic.
Razor think the whole A&A game is completely unrealistic. He still love to play it. Its just a game.
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Hi Kev old buddy (you may call me Raz as usual) Razor needs help on this one.
Situation: Razor play as US and want to sink the Japanese fleet (yes Razor is bad) in a seazone adjacent to the Phillipines. The P. island have an airfield and 5 japanese fighters, who might just want to join in the defense of the japanese fleet. Razor dont like that idea, so he wants to SBR the airfield in order to deny any fighters to take off.
Can that be done in the same turn ? Is it possible to resolve the SBR on the airfield before resolving the attack on the fleet ?
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Great question Razor. +1
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Yes, good question, Raz.
The order of events is:
1. All combat moves are completed
2. Defensive air units scramble
3. SBRs
4. Amphibious assaults
5. All other combatYou can’t prevent a scramble by attacking the air base in the same turn. If you could, a single bomber could tie down several fighters. It’s up to the defending player whether he wants his fighters to defend the air base or the fleet, or some of each.
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Personally, I think this is brilliant! I hated the old unrealistic system of Bombers being able to hit IC’s pretty much at will with only a 1-in-6 chance of an AA hit. It used to frustrate me to no end to have Fighters in a territory with an IC just sit there and be unable to do anything about it. And I’m glad they made it an official rule instead of just an option. Now if you want to pursue a real strategic bombing campaign, you better make a real investment (fighters for escort and extra bombers to take your losses)! And the fact that defending fighters roll on a 2 is ‘accurate’ in the sense that they are defending their own territory and can sortie multiple times as opposed to the escorting fighters having to fight far from their own bases. LOVE this rule!!!
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This rule has been needed since the game’s inception.
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Let’s look at a typical scenerio. 1 escort, 1 bomber attacking 1 defending fighter and 1 AA gun.
The odds say that the escort will hit 1/6 so on average you will do 1.66 ipc damage(kill defender 1/6 of time)
The odds say your bomber will do 3.5 ipc damage.
Total average of 5.16 ipc damage.The odds say the defending fighter will do 3.33 ipc damage( kill escort 1/3 of time)
The odds say the AA gun will do an average of 2ipc damage. (kill bomber 1/6 of time)
Total average of 5.33 ipc damage.You lose when you do SBR. Of course if you have a larger # of escorts then it becomes in your favor…slightly. But really wouldn’t your efforts be wasted? The smart move is to use your fighters on another target if you got extra fighters to spare anyway. So what is the point?
The old rules show that you would win with 1 bomber vs 1 AA gun. 3.5 to 2. It’s simple math guys. You think it’s better because it sounds cool to send up interceptors. Not really. But what do I know.
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I dont know why I keep bother answering this questions, butt here we go:
Dear mr. F. Tiger.
We the community want escort and interceptors because it is cool to send em up.
And they used them in the real war too.
So they pretty much belong in an advanced game in this scale. In AA42 the basic game they dont.And guess what. Back in 1940 they said the same as you. It didn’t pay off to SBR Germany as long as they got a lot of fighters to intercept. Butt after 1944, when the Germans were short on fighters, then it was good business to SBR Germany. Get it ?
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I think it will cut down on SBR only missions for sure. Its like when the defender gets radar (AA @ 2) SBR slows down or comes to a halt. As the attacker you don’t want them firing @ 2, because if they hit then the SBR campaign was a bust. You may have lost more then the defender. Now you could have a greater risk then reward. As the attacker you will need to be more selective about the facility you are attacking. Find the weakest link and attack it. As the defender you can’t possibly put ftrs on all your tt containing a facility, so it could defiantly change some strats.
Its going to be a big change for Germany/Russia. Do you hold your ftrs on your IC or bring them up to the front lines for attack/def purpose. You may find your self basically assigning ftrs to certain tt. It will be more help to a power that is playing more defensive with the battle coming to him, because his ftrs based at his IC/capital will be able to protect him from SBR and be in range to attack the enemy. Could say the same for the island nations, because there is normally ftrs based there.
I wonder if ftrs should have had yet another reduction in cost. If your in a game with a lot of SBR going on. and carriers not able to land planes if damaged, there could surly be a lot ftrs going down. Each power is getting more income now though, so maybe its all good.
I agree with Raz, this game is designed to have more detail and a higher level of thought and planning. With that said the best part is that through house rules you can change that base level up or down according to how your group wants to play. I would suggest you play several games as intended though before you pass judgment. I remember in AA50 I hated the new transport rules at first. Even tried to force feed some house rules early on. Now having to protect your transports makes more sense to me, and I wouldn’t go back. I like the fact that each game has evolved a little more.
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I dont know why I keep bother answering this questions, butt here we go:
Dear mr. F. Tiger.
We the community want escort and interceptors because it is cool to send em up.
And they used them in the real war too.
So they pretty much belong in an advanced game in this scale. In AA42 the basic game they dont.And guess what. Back in 1940 they said the same as you. It didn’t pay off to SBR Germany as long as they got a lot of fighters to intercept. Butt after 1944, when the Germans were short on fighters, then it was good business to SBR Germany. Get it ?
Sounds like we agree completely. If there are defending fighters then there is no point to do a SBR. If there are none then you simply go in with only Bombers and the old rules apply.
The new rules favor the defender too much. If you look at the statistics I am right. The #s I have seen show that when the Allies were bombing there was only a 1.2% chance of being shot down (that’s per sortie). Here in my example it stands at 33% for each defending fighter. Too much power since SBRs are not overpowered unless going in with mass bombers and even then it’s limited to 20 points of damage.
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