Put a bunch of artillery in France with some mechs in w Germany. You should be able to push off an allied invasion.
Italy can usually afford a lot of infantry and may need them.
Axis are underpowered.
-
@marshmallowofwar said in Axis are underpowered.:
Your first turn build is being spent trying to psych out the UK, forcing them to spent their entire build reinforcing the UK rather than anywhere else.
For the record, I love the psych-out. I once won a game entirely by psyching out my opponent on turn one. When his teammates finally convinced him I was full of <bleep>, it was too late for Japan to build properly.
But I digress – back to your note.
You start behind Russia on total infantry. You build ships, and this allows Russia spare room to build tanks and artillery. By the time you start building for the Russian invasion, you are a full turn behind Russia in deployments.
You use those ships for Novgorad. So what – the ships don’t land and are a liability that you have to protect now. Without an air base to cover them, you have to build either an airbase (locking down your planes) or more navy (which ALSO don’t get you anywhere) and in the mean time Russia is building MORE ground forces. You will never catch up.
In the mean time, the survivors from the 8 or 10 units you were able to land can now be crushed by Russia (which had an entire turn to stack Belarus and Bryansk with pretty respectable stacks). Even if you swap unit for unit on your defense roll (you won’t), Russia comes out ahead here. Your ground offensive stalls out.
Solution: Stop wasting your money on ships that don’t actually get you anywhere. Alternately, use the ships to get troops to somewhere they can be effective.
I disagree with this. A turn 1 carrier buy with 2 transports gets troops to the front quicker. Your three transports means that you are “landing” 9 units in Lenningrad every turn. This includes artillery which increases the ultimate attack on Moscow rather than mechs which only attack at 1.
-
@squirecam True, you can land nine units every turn. But Russia is still 30 IPCs ahead of you on ground troops, and you started behind. Those naval units can only get you to Novgorod, which means that you are forced into a northerly attack and cannot pressure the Middle East until later in the game.
Yeah, I’ll play it my way. If I’m building ships, they won’t be used in the Baltic.
EDITED: You can only land six units per round in Novgorod with three transports. Not sure where the nine in the originnal note came from or why it didn’t register when I responded.
Marsh
-
@marshmallowofwar said in Axis are underpowered.:
@squirecam True, you can land nine units every turn. But Russia is still 30 IPCs ahead of you on ground troops, and you started behind. Those naval units can only get you to Novgorod, which means that you are forced into a northerly attack and cannot pressure the Middle East until later in the game.
Yeah, I’ll play it my way. If I’m building ships, they won’t be used in the Baltic.
Marsh
You can pressure the middle east as well if you build a german fleet to aid Italy. You dont have to play out Moscow or bust every game.
-
@marshmallowofwar thank you for your advice, I will try it on tripleA and tell you what I think.
But I think that there’s a problem because if you take all of Russia you still need another victory city. -
Once Germany has Moscow it can get tanks and mech to Egypt in a couple turns. If Germany has all of Russia and only one more VC is needed (meaning that the Allies don’t have Paris back yet), I as the German player would put my money into fending off the Americans while my remaining eastern front units head south for the death blow. Hopefully Italy isn’t a vegetable at this point but if it is, defending Rome must be another priority.
-
@snpic perhaps your focus on victory cities is part of the problem. Economics is a key part of the game as victory becomes inevitable if the Axis can match the combined income of the Allies. It is possible to get German income quite high without actually conquering Moscow or Egypt.
In addition to income, also examine value exchanges in combat. If you can be doing battles with favorable gains due to air power support, you will slowly catch up with the initial Allied advantage. Attack a lone Allied destroyer with your airforce will lead to a +5 TUV outcome. Repeat a few times a turn and you will make a dent in the initial material advantage. Planes are your friend as the Axis. Fleet is your bane and minimize purchases to what is absolutely necessary.
-
@squirecam said in Axis are underpowered.:
You can pressure the middle east as well if you build a german fleet to aid Italy. You dont have to play out Moscow or bust every game.
In the scenario you’re describing you’re either splitting your forces, which means Russia is on definitive seek and destroy (and possibly even pushing you back), or you’re concentrating in the north, which means there is no pressure on the Middle East until several turns after you build this second fleet.
Assuming you build your fleet in Southern France, you need several turns to build a fleet that can survive if the UK is doing alright and essentially in control of the Med. Your Med fleet depends on the Italians to survive unless you’re spending a lot of money (more not spent on ground troops). If there is any UK or US air presence, your fleet will be blown out of the water as soon as you start building it without an Italian navy or air cover (which you have to build and anchor fighters there – more forces NOT helping you in Russia).
Of course, you might be trying to move your Baltic fleet to the Med. That is several turns of concerted movement through a hostile Atlantic and you are depending on Italian control of Strait of Gibraltar.
And once again, those ships do not occupy territories – they don’t help your economy directly. They are not “boots on the ground”.
I 100% agree with you that you don’t have to “Moscow or bust” every game, but you DO need to shut down the Russian army in a way that makes it totally defensive. That takes a LOT of ground troops and planes.
@snpic said in Axis are underpowered.:
@marshmallowofwar thank you for your advice, I will try it on tripleA and tell you what I think.
But I think that there’s a problem because if you take all of Russia you still need another victory city.That’s true, but it’s rarely an issue. Your practical choice for VC is now Cairo or London. If things have been going well-ish for the Axis in the Med at this point but Egypt still holds out, there’s an excellent chance that the UK player has short-changed the spending on UK defenses. NOW you can build your fleet and air force while you bolster your Western defenses and consolidate Russian territories that you haven’t been able to conquer yet. A late Sea Lion is a beautiful thing (for the Axis).
On the other hand, if Egypt can be destroyed by the forces you currently have at hand (and can produce and deliver in a timely manner), you can go for Egypt.
Marsh
-
@marshmallowofwar said in Axis are underpowered.:
@squirecam said in Axis are underpowered.:
You can pressure the middle east as well if you build a german fleet to aid Italy. You dont have to play out Moscow or bust every game.
In the scenario you’re describing you’re either splitting your forces, which means Russia is on definitive seek and destroy (and possibly even pushing you back), or you’re concentrating in the north, which means there is no pressure on the Middle East until several turns after you build this second fleet.
Assuming you build your fleet in Southern France, you need several turns to build a fleet that can survive if the UK is doing alright and essentially in control of the Med. Your Med fleet depends on the Italians to survive unless you’re spending a lot of money (more not spent on ground troops). If there is any UK or US air presence, your fleet will be blown out of the water as soon as you start building it without an Italian navy or air cover (which you have to build and anchor fighters there – more forces NOT helping you in Russia).
Of course, you might be trying to move your Baltic fleet to the Med. That is several turns of concerted movement through a hostile Atlantic and you are depending on Italian control of Strait of Gibraltar.
And once again, those ships do not occupy territories – they don’t help your economy directly. They are not “boots on the ground”.
I 100% agree with you that you don’t have to “Moscow or bust” every game, but you DO need to shut down the Russian army in a way that makes it totally defensive. That takes a LOT of ground troops and planes.
@snpic said in Axis are underpowered.:
@marshmallowofwar thank you for your advice, I will try it on tripleA and tell you what I think.
But I think that there’s a problem because if you take all of Russia you still need another victory city.That’s true, but it’s rarely an issue. Your practical choice for VC is now Cairo or London. If things have been going well-ish for the Axis in the Med at this point but Egypt still holds out, there’s an excellent chance that the UK player has short-changed the spending on UK defenses. NOW you can build your fleet and air force while you bolster your Western defenses and consolidate Russian territories that you haven’t been able to conquer yet. A late Sea Lion is a beautiful thing (for the Axis).
On the other hand, if Egypt can be destroyed by the forces you currently have at hand (and can produce and deliver in a timely manner), you can go for Egypt.
Marsh
I’m not necessarily concentrating anywhere. I’m going where there is opportunity. The first build is ac + fleet, either 2 transports or des + sub. Then I see what the allies do. Do they attack Taranto. What does the US do in the Pacific (as my fleet is not attacking J1 but stationed in Carolines.) Do they go all Atlantic or pacific or split. What and where does Uk build.
This provides a multitude of options. But I have southern France taken by Germany to allow for med support. I have transports for shipping to Leningrad. In short I have infrastructure purchased G1 and G2 that allow me to put pressure potentially everywhere before US is brought in J3.
The Russian territories are worth 1 or 2 to the axis except for Leningrad. The med is worth +15 to +20 for the axis if you can get four bonuses. And you can do both at the same time. Yes, you aren’t in Stalingrad G6. But you don’t need to be.
-
@squirecam said in Axis are underpowered.:
The Russian territories are worth 1 or 2 to the axis except for Leningrad. The med is worth +15 to +20 for the axis if you can get four bonuses. And you can do both at the same time. Yes, you aren’t in Stalingrad G6. But you don’t need to be.
We are talking OOB; right? If so… since Job #2 for UK, right behind defending London, is taking out Italy and controlling the Med I don’t see any competent Allied Player letting the Axis get control of the Med.
BM3 is a different story all together.
-
@andrewaagamer said in Axis are underpowered.:
@squirecam said in Axis are underpowered.:
The Russian territories are worth 1 or 2 to the axis except for Leningrad. The med is worth +15 to +20 for the axis if you can get four bonuses. And you can do both at the same time. Yes, you aren’t in Stalingrad G6. But you don’t need to be.
We are talking OOB; right? If so… since Job #2 for UK, right behind defending London, is taking out Italy and controlling the Med I don’t see any competent Allied Player letting the Axis get control of the Med.
BM3 is a different story all together.
Either version. Please also take into account that I mostly play FTF at Gencon and such, so there is no 60 to 100 bid (as in the latest tutor game) as you may be thinking. You might get somewhere in the 20s.
That said, you take out 110 and 111. You don’t attack J1. You take Southern France so Germany can help in the med. And you play Japan to head towards Caroline’s with everything that can reach so to force US to build in the pacific or risk losing Hawaii and Australia.
If US still builds 100% Atlantic then Japan must win the game. Because it’s difficult to keep the med in that situation. You can always forgo fleets and just neutral your way into Gibraltar and Turkey but that has drawbacks too. But it can be done if you plan ahead and aren’t buying mechs for a Moscow run. Absent that, you are using transports and air assaulting Gibraltar at every opportunity. Because Italy needs to be shown the money.
But if US goes Atlantic there is nothing between Japan taking Hawaii and Australia. Which is all they need for the VC win. They don’t need India. And once Hawaii falls the US can’t get it back without going 100 pacific. Except they are already far behind by going Atlantic T1 and T2. So it will take many builds to overcome that. India and China can’t help Australia. It’s going to fall if US goes Atlantic. It’s just a matter of when.
-
I would agree if the US is not fighting in the Atlantic with anything more than a token force AND there is only a $20 range bid that the Med is up for grabs.
My question is, for OOB, why in the world would anyone accept a $20 range bid? Do these tournaments you play at GenCon have different victory conditions than normal? Are they timed games? I have heard of that but having never played at one my personal experience is nil.
-
@andrewaagamer said in Axis are underpowered.:
I would agree if the US is not fighting in the Atlantic with anything more than a token force AND there is only a $20 range bid that the Med is up for grabs.
My question is, for OOB, why in the world would anyone accept a $20 range bid? Do these tournaments you play at GenCon have different victory conditions than normal? Are they timed games? I have heard of that but having never played at one my personal experience is nil.
So actually the current tournament uses the 1942 setup, so that all countries start at war. Due to the limited time frame games must end at 10 hrs or so.
But before that setup people played with a bid in the 20s. You do not have time to take 30 minutes to run simulations on the best moves. You cannot use online battle calculators. You need to know what to do beforehand and play more with your gut then an odds calculation. As the games are at risk of mistakes, you really dont need a 60 bid. Moreover, bids are not limited to one unit per territory.
With the 42 setup, the axis win if they have 125 ipc at the end of the game. No bonus income counts. If they dont, they need 6 VC in the pacific. Europe VC win isnt happening. Otherwise the allies win.
-
@squirecam said in Axis are underpowered.:
With the 42 setup, the axis win if they have 125 ipc at the end of the game. No bonus income counts. If they dont, they need 6 VC in the pacific. Europe VC win isnt happening. Otherwise the allies win.
Very interesting! Thank you!
Never played the 42 scenario. I wonder why it isn’t played here in league?
-
Also, at 10 hours of play, I would assume games go about 8 full Rounds??? Is there any timer to make sure one Player (power) isn’t taking too much time to make their moves?
-
@andrewaagamer said in Axis are underpowered.:
@squirecam said in Axis are underpowered.:
With the 42 setup, the axis win if they have 125 ipc at the end of the game. No bonus income counts. If they dont, they need 6 VC in the pacific. Europe VC win isnt happening. Otherwise the allies win.
Very interesting! Thank you!
Never played the 42 scenario. I wonder why it isn’t played here in league?
IDK. It nerfs the axis though. The order changes, so Russia goes first. Thus, there is no Italian can opener. UK Pacific is also nerfed, but so is Japan. Starts with much fewer fighters. Still, you can build an IC or two and have a better than average chance of taking India. Germany has it rough as US goes before them, taking out German subs before they can strike. Only 1 IC in France vs 3. Italy is worse off than they are in 40 and that was already poor.
But it’s a fun and different variant to play. With the changed order it’s not simply 40 with a new setup. It plays differently and you have to treat them as distinct versions.
-
@andrewaagamer said in Axis are underpowered.:
Also, at 10 hours of play, I would assume games go about 8 full Rounds??? Is there any timer to make sure one Player (power) isn’t taking too much time to make their moves?
You can get a judge involved if you think your opponent is slow playing. No round timer or chess clock though.
-
Why are you talking about 42 in a Global 1940 forum?
-
@marshmallowofwar said in Axis are underpowered.:
Why are you talking about 42 in a Global 1940 forum?
Because Andrew asked a question about it.
-
@marshmallowofwar said in Axis are underpowered.:
Why are you talking about 42 in a Global 1940 forum?
Didn’t you read the thread?
- We were talking about controlling the Med in Global 1940.
- Which led to a comment about GenCon only having $20 OOB bids.
- Which morphed into a statement that those GenCon games were actually 1942, not 1940.
- Which resulted in my question about how GenCon works.
- So actually we were talking about GenCon in a 1940 thread, not 1942.
Hope that helps!
-
@squirecam why no J1? How should Allies react to a J1, go KGF?
Suggested Topics
