• an allied win in 41 can be tough.  my strategies always depend on the axis turns. my first turn with russia is almost always a regroup, defend, attack type thing.  for me russia doesnt go on offense till her 4th turn usually.

    if jap has bad J1 in pacific,  then i try to use USA in pacific mostly, with a UK IC in SAF or (sometimes not often) AUS, the allies can really slow down japans march towards russia.

    if germany has a bad first turn, then its off to the atlantic.  i like to let the UK take NOR and FIN just for the extra 5ipc, they need it.  with US, i will usually go towards ALG. bmrs for the US is a must.  how many?  depends what else you need. at least 1 to send to UK.  keep sbr ger and italy.

    i love it when ger buys boats.  usually pretty easy to sink, and that means less arm towards rus.  try to build up the UK navy and keep the fleet together with americans if possible.  i usually let ger take kar first turn.  no sense in letting all the russians die for it.  move the ruskies to fin or arc for counter attack.

    if ger and jap both have a good first turn…well good luck, i usually dont win those games. :-D

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I see the confusion, let me clarify:

    If you employ a sub-optimal tactic, you are hoping that your opponent’s method of countering it is more ineffective than your tactic is.

    Example:

    America goes nuts buying submarines every round putting down 3-5.

    Japan counters buy building 4 destroyers a round.

    Who gets hurt more?  They are both sub-optimal strategies, but the way your opponent is countering (because he is inexperienced or whatever) is less effective, thus, your strategy is more effective than a straight and narrow campaign. (Presumably because your opponent is more accustomed to it.)

    Not saying it’s a great idea, just explaining the mindset behind it!


  • A typical UK1 move involves ending with atleast 3 trannies within range of norway/finland.  Defending that factory is gonna be difficult unless you take Kar hard, fast, and early with a huge stack.


  • i have not used a UK factory in Norway often.  IF i put an IC in nor, it’s usually US.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    The way I play, there’s no way England’s gunna have 3 transports in range of anything at the end of their turn.  Unless I get diced like I did against A44 earlier.

    SZ 2 will have 1 to 2 submarines
    SZ 6 will have a submarine
    France will have 1 to 2 fighters
    Libya will have a bomber
    Germany will have a bomber
    SZ 5 will have 2 to 3 submarines (depending on what I build.)

    England’s got 1 Trn, 1 DD in SZ 9.  You’d have to build 2 transports and surface ships to protect them to have anything in range of Scandinavia on Round 2.


  • @bugoo:

    A typical UK1 move involves ending with atleast 3 trannies within range of norway/finland.  Defending that factory is gonna be difficult unless you take Kar hard, fast, and early with a huge stack.

    This is not usually the case with me.  At the start of UK1 the only navy I have is the Australian navy, and about 70% of the time the Des and tranny in SZ 9.  If I have anything else left I consider myself highly blessed.  Germany could have all of her planes on the coast as well as a cruiser and maybe a couple subs lurking about.  That set up is not unusual at all.

    By the end of UK1 I try to have 2 trannies in range, but even that is not a guarantee.


  • At work, I was thinking about how to change things.

    What IF China started instead of Germany? That should make things quite interesting since the Yunnan fighter would remain alive.
    It doesn’t change the game too drastically, and it should slow down Japanese, or at least force him into committing more troops in the central front :)

    Any thoughts? I personnally believe the game to be balanced enough (i haven’t played enough just yet). But if balancement is needed, maybe just switching the order of play would be fine.

    Robert


  • i have read somewhere (here?)  that someone started doing that.  china goes first, then regular.  after the US is done, money and all, china starts the new round again.  seemed to work for them, sounded like a good idea to me.  i plan to try it next time i play f2f.


  • SZ2 with 1 AC, 1 russian sub, and 1 DD vs 2 subs and 2 bombs = 19% chance for G to win.  All UK purchased was the carrier.  If you have a 3rd sub, I simply purchase an extra destroyer, or go for broke and buy a 2nd carrier and 2 transports.  And against 2 DDs, and 2 carriers and 3-4 figs SZ 8 you would need 3 additional figs if i loaded 3 figs, 4 if I loaded 4.  And I can still drop 3 trannies worth UK2, just not where I want.

    Carriers are the ultimate defend from annoying airplane defense, along with destroyers.  Yes if you try to keep defensive pace with cruisers you’ll have a hard time, and I don’t.

    And you mean to tell me you often purchase 2 subs and a bomber on G1, spending what on ground troops?  In that case i don’t need transports russia is fine.


  • @axis_roll:

    @Cmdr:

    @axis_roll:

    @a44bigdog:

    Sometimes doing the less than optimal thing can be a good thing; as it can throw and opponent off due to their not being familiar with it, and the needed response.

    OK, good point.

    But how would you know if your opponent will stumble on your different-than-mainstream strategy OR jump all over it’s sub-optimal properties and whallop the Axis?

    I tend to always give my opponents the benefit of the doubt.

    Even if they do realize the sub optimal strategy, they have to do something to counter it.  That alone makes them also use a sub-optimal strategy, hopefully they’ll screw up or use a sub-optimal strategy that is less effective than yours is, and you’ll win.

    Chic logic.

    Please read what you wrote, it doesn’t make sense.

    Let me explain.

    @Cmdr:

    Even if they do realize the sub optimal strategy, …

    OK, you’re with me, yes, I give the opponent the benefit of the doubt.  They recognize I am employing a sub-optimal strategy.

    @Cmdr:

    …they have to do something to counter it.  …

    OK, yes, I have to agree with you here Captain Obvious.

    @Cmdr:

    That alone makes them also use a sub-optimal strategy, ….

    Woah!  Estrogen based thinking alert!  How does them realizing you are employing a sub-optimal strategy FORCE the opponent into a counter that is sub-optimal?  Assuming you know what ‘sub-optimal’ means, now the allies should be able to easily handle the Axis move, because, by definition, it is NOT the best move for them to make (again, the benefit of the doubt is giving to the opponent).

    @Cmdr:

    …hopefully they’ll screw up or use a sub-optimal strategy that is less effective than yours is, and you’ll win.

    Ah yes, the crux of your post.  I make a sub-optimal move… but I will win because I hope my opponent will screw up (too).

    Chic logic.  Explained.

    man, I just gave you a +1 karma for a different post that used non-hostile logic and then I read this slam? Come on dude!


  • @critmonster:

    man, I just gave you a +1 karma for a different post that used non-hostile logic and then I read this slam? Come on dude!

    Hmm.

    Even Jen admits there was ‘confusion’ in her post:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14406.msg470722#msg470722

    I described it as ‘chic’ logic because it was not logical.  I am a programmer, so my world is based on logical thinking.  My wife is a nurse, she has occasional fits of chic logic.  I tell her this and she laughs, it’s an inside joke.


  • I’m just glad you said ‘chic’ logic, which otherwise means ‘trendy’ logic.  Because if it were ‘chick’ logic, that would be pretty offensive….

    Peace


  • @General:

    G1

    German Buys - 5 x tank
                 2 x inf

    4 inf: Poland -> Baltic States
    1 art: Poland -> Baltic states
    1 tank: Poland -> Baltic states
    1 inf: Germany -> via trn sea zone 5 -> Baltic States
    1 art: Germany -> via trn sea zone 5 -> Baltic States
    (crusier sz 6 gets shore shot)

    1 x tank: Poland -> East Poland
    2 x Tank: Czech -> East Poland
    1 x tank: Bul/Rom -> East Poland
    1 x inf: Bul/Rom -> East Poland

    1 x tank: Bul/Rom -> Ukraine
    2 x inf: Bul/Rom -> Ukraine
    1 x art: Bul/Rom -> Ukraine

    1 x fighter: Poland -> SZ6
    1 x sub: SZ 5 -> SZ6

    1 x FIghter: Norway -> SZ2
    1 x Sub: SZ7 -> SZ2
    1 x Bomber: Germany -> SZ2

    1 x Fighter: NW Europe -> SZ12
    1 x sub: SZ7 -> SZ12
    1 x Fighter: Germany -> SZ12

    Link to German setup turn 1

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/German%20Turn%201%20setup.jpg

    Germans win all combats and take light casualties.  Worst loss is 1 x

    fighter in SZ 12.

    Results

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Germans%20turn%201%20after%20combat.jpg

    After place units

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Germans%20Turn%201%20after%20place.jpg

    R1

    Russian Buys = 2 x inf
           1 X art
           2 x tanks
           1 x fighter

    No Combat moves

    Non combat illustrated below.

    leave 7 inf in bur
    move 3 inf towards rus
    move russian tank to kar ssr
    stack 5 inf 1 art on archangel
    stack 6 inf in cauc

    Unit placements -

    1 x tank 1 x fighter in kar ssr
    2 x inf 1 x art 1 x tank in cauc

    End of Russia Turn 1 map

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/End%20of%20Russia%20turn%201.jpg

    note: What have I done wrong here?  how can I make a better T1 buy and setup

    to stop the germans taking kar or get in a position to trade back and still

    be strong in the south.

    J1

    Japanese buys-

    2 x trn
    1 x inf

    Combat moves

    2 x ftr: SZ 57 -> SZ 53
    1 x dstr: SZ 51 -> SZ 53
    2 x ftr: SZ 57 -> sz 56

    3 x inf: MAN -> sui
    2 x inf: Kia -> Fuki
    2 x inf: FIC -> Yun
    1 x inf: FIC -> Fuki
    1 x ftr: MAN -> Yun
    1 x ftr: FOR -> Yun
    1 x ftr: Jap -> Fuki

    1 x inf: Car islds - via trn (SZ 51) > Phil isld
    2 x inf: Car islds - via trn (SZ 51) > Borneo (Borneo Taken)
    1 BS: SZ 61 -> SZ 50
    1 x inf 1 x tank - via trn (japan SZ 62) > Phil isld

    1 X Carrier w/ 2 x ftr: SZ 61 -> SZ37
    1 x art 2 x inf -via trn x 2> SZ61 -> SZ37
    1 x cruiser: SZ61 -> SZ37
    2 x ftr: SZ37 -> SZ 35
    3 x inf: SZ37 -> Burma
    1 x art: SZ37 -> Burma

    japan Turn 1 combat setup west map

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Japan%20turn%201%20west.jpg

    japan Turn 1 combat setup east map

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/japan%20turn%201%20east.jpg

    Combat

    Sui taken
    Burma Taken
    SZ 50 win
    Phil islds taken
    SZ 53 win - ftr/dstr lost
    Yunnan Taken
    Fukien Taken
    SZ 56 win - ftr lost
    Hupeh stalemate - chinese retain territory
    SZ 35 win - ftr lost

    West map

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/japan%20end%20of%20turn%201%20west.jpg

    East Map

    http://java.cms.livjm.ac.uk/homepage/staff/taedfolk/Axis%20and%20Allies/Japan%20end%20of%20turn%201%20east.jpg


    So this is my turn 1 up to now.  How would you approach this game?  I have
    left Gibraltar so as to let a few more strategies in the med be viable.  But
    ordinarily I would take gibraltar with the germans to deny uk a NO and to
    stop a build up of air units there on UK 1.

    The allies need you!!!

    why do you want to keep karelia in the first place?


  • I have played as Russia several times in the 41 set-up with full players on the board version with NOs and have found it difficult but not impossible to win as the Allies. I did things a little differently: For starters I bought mostly all men and a few tanks, no planes or anything else until several turns latter. It is a bit boring of a game as you try to hang on until help finally arrives. As Russia you MUST keep taken back what Germany takes away so as to keep a buffer zone between Moscow and Germany. Kareila is usually a loss until UK comes to help. UK should strike at Findland and Poland (if possible) or Baltic’s if not. That cuts Germany off to the north and Russia can concentrate on the south. Try to keep at Germany and Italy at bay for as long as possible. UK should build a factory in South Africa on T1 and build tanks there every turn and planned the rest for the Europe attacks. This helps cut off the access to Russia through Jordan. I can seem daunting at times and you feel like giving up but I hung in there and turned it around before Russia fell. Once you stop the advance you got it made. Also always attack Germany’s offensive pieces first if they are vulnerable. Make sure you always protect your tanks and use them only when safe, same goes for the planes (if you manage to get some). You change your buys as the game allows and as you progress. 8-)


  • @Panzer:

    I did things a little differently: For starters I bought mostly all men and a few tanks, no planes or anything else until several turns latter

    What are doing the japs against that strat? If they are wise, they can annoy USA’s rear by rogue landings at Alaska, a full Polar Express buildup or even a early surprise attack against WUSA with their 5 starting trannies and 6 starting planes. A tank rush in Asia is valid also, Japan is quicker than it seems and can reach Africa sooner than west Allies if ignored. Japan can buy bombers and SBR USSR and maybe even UK until stone age (in this game Japan is uber-rich for some strange reason and can afford that more than USA)

    I think you are forced to buy surface ships as allies, even with a ignore Japan strat, so I guess you mean buy 1 round of defenders and trannies and later buy only land units for the suck


  • @Funcioneta:

    @Panzer:

    I did things a little differently: For starters I bought mostly all men and a few tanks, no planes or anything else until several turns latter

    What are doing the japs against that strat? If they are wise, they can annoy USA’s rear by rogue landings at Alaska, a full Polar Express buildup or even a early surprise attack against WUSA with their 5 starting trannies and 6 starting planes. A tank rush in Asia is valid also, Japan is quicker than it seems and can reach Africa sooner than west Allies if ignored. Japan can buy bombers and SBR USSR and maybe even UK until stone age (in this game Japan is uber-rich for some strange reason and can afford that more than USA)

    I think you are forced to buy surface ships as allies, even with a ignore Japan strat, so I guess you mean buy 1 round of defenders and trannies and later buy only land units for the suck

    In one game UK bought a IC on India and actually managed to contain Japan for at least 4 turns before it was getting tough. They then moved some of Egypt forces over to India to re-inforce. By that time USA had been buying Pacific fleet from the beginning and had moved its fleet out to challenge Japan, so Japan had to turn around to counter US. Japan did get huge but they took too long getting rid of China and were not able to secure India, so they were not able to concentrate on Russia and eventually the Allies gained the advantage.

    In another game UK bought an IC on South Africa and on India on turn one and bought all tanks on both for the first 6 turns. These were enough to hold Egypt and India. UK also flew a couple of his planes over to add to it. They were not able to concentrate on Germany as much but they eventually got to Europe in time before Germany could defeat Russia.

    In yet another game UK tried just the South African IC and it worked also but India fell before US could get there. Russia was in trouble for a bit, but with luck managed to hold on as UK did take away Finland and kept hitting Karia and Balkans as Germany would take them. Russia managed to take back the countries right beside Moscow and after about 10 turns the Allies started to gain momentum. Most of Russia’s troops and tanks were kept in Caucausus. I never bothered fixing the Karelia IC when it was bombed, that way Germany has to fix if they capture.

    In any case it is difficult and Russia is the key, because if they fall the Axis is on its way to victory.

    I believe that USA has to buy fleet and deal with Japan and UK has to be the deciding factor in keeping Russia alive by stoping all three of the Axis countries advance as soon as possible and countering there moves. UK has to buy ships when they can depending upon what is left from T1.

    If the Allies get a little luck on T1 they can make a good go of it. If they loose everything the Axis can hit on T1 they will loose if they cannot recover quickly.


  • @Panzer:

    In one game UK bought a IC on India and actually managed to contain Japan for at least 4 turns before it was getting tough. They then moved some of Egypt forces over to India to re-inforce. By that time USA had been buying Pacific fleet from the beginning and had moved its fleet out to challenge Japan, so Japan had to turn around to counter US. Japan did get huge but they took too long getting rid of China and were not able to secure India, so they were not able to concentrate on Russia and eventually the Allies gained the advantage.

    That sounds like very weak or inexperienced play on the Japanese players part.  Japan should have no problem taking India in turn 2 or at worst 3, even with the UK building anything there.  Germany and Italy should be having a good old time if the UK is sinking money into India and not forcing Germany to protect against landings.


  • @bongaroo:

    @Panzer:

    In one game UK bought a IC on India and actually managed to contain Japan for at least 4 turns before it was getting tough. They then moved some of Egypt forces over to India to re-inforce. By that time USA had been buying Pacific fleet from the beginning and had moved its fleet out to challenge Japan, so Japan had to turn around to counter US. Japan did get huge but they took too long getting rid of China and were not able to secure India, so they were not able to concentrate on Russia and eventually the Allies gained the advantage.

    That sounds like very weak or inexperienced play on the Japanese players part.  Japan should have no problem taking India in turn 2 or at worst 3, even with the UK building anything there.  Germany and Italy should be having a good old time if the UK is sinking money into India and not forcing Germany to protect against landings.

    Actually we have very experienced players that have been playing A&A for a long time. We have almost all the different versions, AA50 being our favorite. UK brought over some of the Africa and Australian units for help to hold India. Japan goes first and they went after Philipinnes, Hong Kong, and China first, so on UK’s turn they figured they could hold it and brought a couple of planes over to help. US moved its fleet to the Caroline inlands by the end of turn two, so Japan was threaten already there as well. We always tend to go for the jugular when we play.

    A matter of fact we just played another 41 game last weekend where I was the Axis, and I actually was not able to take India until turn 5, which ended up being the turn the Allies conceded. On turn 5 Germany managed to roll 17 tanks into Moscow and take it. A screwed Russia up by sacrificing all of Italy’s forces on turn four to take Byelorussia, so that at the beginning of turn 5, I could blitz my tanks through right into Moscow.
    That actually was one of my best games as the Axis. It is actually hilarious because on Germany’s first turn I purchased an AC and a destroyer, one tank and one canon. Germany went all their forces against Baltic States and took out UK’s fleet around UK, and that was their turn. On Italy’s turn they purchased two tanks and took Ukraine, Jordan and Egypt. On Germany’s second turn they purchased another AC, a sub, two tanks, and one infantry, and hit Karelia with everything that could reach and captured it. Russia had brought everything they could into Karelia and bought two guys there also, but were not able to hold it. They did not have enough to take it back and Germany was able to hold on to it. Germany T3 they bought all tanks and moved those to Baltics on turn 4. Germany also bought two tanks on Karelia every turn after owning it. So by end of turn 4 there was 17 German tanks ready to “blitz” to Moscow throught Byelorussia from Baltic and Karelia. Also on turn 2 Italy bought all tanks, turn three they bought an AC and plane. On turn 2 UK came out and took Norway, they thought they had enough to defend against the German fleet, but I decided to attack all out against the UK’s fleet on turn 3 and managed to eliminate the fleet and Germany had two loaded ACs left only with a transport. On turn 4 Germany loaded that transport and moved down to Gibraltor and took that, then on Italy’s turn 4 I moved their fleet out to join the German fleet for a total of three ACs loaded, 1 battleship, and 2 cruisers, by this time the US had built an AC fleet at Washington and had three bombers and two planes. He decided to hit my combined fleet. He rolled badly and only hit twice on the first round, whereas Germany hit all his pieces on the first round and eliminated the US fleet and bombers as well, only losing a cruiser. Japan hit US fleet on turn 4 also and wiped out pacific fleet wiithout losing very much. So at the beginning of turn 5 Germany takes Moscow, Africa completely belonging to Germany, China done and India gone, and with my two massive fleets (Atlantic and Pacific) the Allies conceded.
    It was a beautiful crushing. :-D
    Japan can concentrate on India but must do so right from the beggining ignoring China somewhat, but every game turns out different because of counter moves. 8-)


  • Meah, In all my games all the UK has left is 2 inf in TRJ and no fleet to move anything with.

    But don’t take my advice, I loose all my games on this site.


  • Reply to the subject line of the topic at hand…

    Yes… when playing as if AA50 is Revised, in a straight all out KGF, Japan dominates.

    A solution I’m playtesting with some success right now in multiple games - start buying one bomber per turn from US1 on, fly to Britain for a concentrated pummeling of (mostly) German and (some) Italian factory production. Get a shuck of one transport (two total under the protection of heavy British naval purchases UK1 & 2) and a couple infantry per round up and running. If possible take Norway with US, build an IC. Start producing a maddening trickle of US infantry flowing into Russia, with bomber support.

    Now the Pacific. Build and keep the pressure on with the rest of your American IPCs (20-30 per turn, depending on progress in Europe). You easily have 2 CVs + 4 ftrs quickly for a base; destroyers and subs (and a small land threat) to follow. Then it becomes a game of opportunity… can’t tell you what to do from there, but opportunities will present themselves. The main idea is to harass, play the Pacific NO game, keep the Japanese player uncomfortable.

    A nice thing about the steady buildup of bombers in Britain (despite the unavoidable loss now and then) is the ability to have some or all of them in the Pacific theater quickly, giving a nice set of fangs to the relatively defensive navy growing on the West Coast of the US. No Japanese player likes the sight of 2 CVs/4ftr/3 dest/4 subs/couple of loaded trannies/3 bombers around turn 4. Makes you shift in your seat as Japan… and purchase units that aren’t hurting Russia…

    The UK and Russia have to keep up steady aggressive pressure, screening vs. Japan while assaulting Germany with all they have (a Germany reduced somewhat from bombing damage), and waiting for the US to get in gear. The US is the key… the basic tenet here is to replicate (to some extent) the role of America in WWII.

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