So my idea is that Japan will have a naval coup (supported by Britain maybe, the IJN always had strong links to Britain), and when that happens (at the start of the game), these are the new rules:
“Allied Japan” will control the entire navy at setup, all islands Japan controls at the start (and all the units on them) and Siam and the units there.
“Axis Japan” will control Japanese occupied China and Korea, all of the units on those territories, and it’s capital is Shanghai.
Both sides start at war with one another, with Axis Japan also at war with China, but all other powers are neutral in this “Japanese civil war”.
The US and Japanese neutrality rules to each other (the US cannot end naval units in sea zones next to a Japanese territory, and Japan not being able to end naval units within three sea zones of North American mainland US territories) no longer applies to Allied Japan (but still Axis Japan) and whenever either side captures an original Japanese territory, it is considered liberated and given to that side’s Japan.
Chinese territories are considered liberated and given to China if liberated by the Allies, but given to Axis Japan if captured by the Axis.
If Tokyo is taken by the Axis, then Axis Japan’s capital will move there.
Both Axis Japan and Allied Japan may declare war on the other members of the other side on any turn (except the Soviet Union).
Pacific victory conditions will change, as I will explain later.
National objectives:
Due to this “civil war” never happening in real life, I cannot give an explanation of each national objective’s historical context in italic font, because it never happened.
Axis Japan:
10 IPCs if Axis capture Tokyo (first time only) Theme: national prestige.
5 IPCs if Axis Japan controls Manchuria, Kiangsu and Korea. Theme: major power centres.
5 IPCs if no convoys next to Axis Japanese territories are being attacked. Theme: access to vital shipping lanes.
Allied Japan:
1 IPC every time Allied Japan liberates a territory for China. Theme: “treaty with China” commitment.
10 IPCs (first time only) when Axis Japan is defeated (this means that Axis Japan does not control any territories or units). Theme: national prestige.
5 IPCs if Allied Japan controls 5 non Axis Japanese territories originally controlled by the Axis powers (only territories originally controlled by Italy, Germany, and the Soviet Union count). Theme: commitment to the Allied cause.
All national objectives for Japan in the normal rulebook are not used.
Whenever the rules mention another nation’s relations to Japan, it will refer to Axis Japan.
I know that this could never have happened in real life, but it could make for an interesting game, maybe a bit like World War 1 (easy win for the Allies in the Pacific, but maybe not that much if the Soviet Union joins the Axis rule).
Rules for the Soviet Union joining the Axis:
We will assume that the membership will last towards the end of the war.
Soviet units may not be moved to German controlled territories, as the conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union will still exist.
None of the Allies may declare war on the Soviet Union until the respective power’s third turns.
The Soviet Union may only declare war on the third turn.
New victory conditions: All victory cities on both maps will be counted the same. In order to win the game, the Axis have to control 15 victory cities in the game for one full turn (they need not be the same cities) ending with the end of the turn of the Axis power who captured the last victory city required.
Two minor Axis (Italy and Axis Japan) capitals have to be taken, and one major Axis (Germany and the Soviet Union) have to be held for one turn (they don’t have to be the same capitals).
Finland becomes a strict neutral territory and will be treated as such.
National objectives (replaces the old ones):
When the Soviet Union Is At War:
6 IPCs if the Soviet Union controls Eastern Persia, Persia, Iraq, and Northwest Persia. Theme: access to the open sea and ocean.
1 IPC if the Soviet Union controls Bulgaria. Theme: Soviet desire to have access to bases in Bulgaria.
15 IPCs if the Soviet Union controls Turkey. Theme: long time desire for control of the Turkish Straits.
2 IPCs if Finland is not pro Allies, controlled by Germany or the Allies. Theme: important exports of resources to the Soviet Union.
Germany’s “when at war with the Soviet Union” national objectives will not be in effect, whilst Germany’s “not at war with the Soviet Union” national objective will increase to 8 IPCs, representing massively increased economic offers the Soviets gave to Germany in historic German-Soviet Axis talks. This will take place after the Soviet Union’s second turn.
The Soviet Union-Mongolian pact acts the same as normal, although it now applies to all Allied powers, instead of just Japan.
Germany can move troops into Finland in their first turn-Germany therefore gains the IPCs from the territory. At the start of Germany’s second turn, Germany must move any units moved into Finland out of the territory, if possible (if possible, that action must be done). All mobilised Finnish troops will stay in the territory, and Finland will become a strict neutral, and Germany will no longer control the territory. If Finland is attacked, Germany will gain control of the territory for the rest of the game (the Soviets still don’t get their national objective relating to Finland).
If you have any questions, please ask them.
Just some thoughts on your formatting, before I think over your rules:
Please more clearly separate your ideas for the Soviets from your ideas for Japan - it’s hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
Also, you might want to put mention of your Imperial Civil War concept in your title.
-Midnight_Reaper
Thank you for your comments, just something I wanted to add that I forgot:
The change in the turn sequence will be that Axis Japan goes after the Soviet Union (Soviet Union’s turn still goes after Germany’s turn), then Allied Japan goes after that, then the US and so on.
When I first came up with these ideas, I always thought of them being used together (using only the Soviet Union one is suicide for the Allies, as I have discovered), which is why I didn’t really keep them separate. Sorry about that.
@superbattleshipyamato123 Looks fascinating, recently I’ve been working on the Soviet and Japan simply just change sides and China would be Axis+starts the game First- it’s still a work in progress but will have the finished product somewhere this year!!!
Cool! I love that! The reason why I did not simply turn Japan into an Allied power is that after the naval led coup, it is likely that the army men will escape, and fight on in mainland Asia, thus beginning this specific conflict.
Also, I doubt that China could have joined the Axis, unless:
China and Japan magically have all of their dislike for each other disappear and their war ends.
Hitler decides to ally with China, instead of Japan, which is a bad idea, as China is far weaker than Japan.
I also have an idea for another Soviet national objective:
5 IPCs if the Soviet Union controls 6 Chinese territories. Theme: aid to the Chinese communists and establishment of a Communist Chinese government.
@superbattleshipyamato123 said in What if the Soviet Union joined the Axis and Japan joined the Allies?:
When I first came up with these ideas, I always thought of them being used together (using only the Soviet Union one is suicide for the Allies, as I have discovered), which is why I didn’t really keep them separate. Sorry about that.
I think the ideas are fine together. They probably aren’t balanced if used separately. My comment is more about the appearance of your proposal - your text runs together, making it difficult to see where the sections begin and end. Please use extra lines and / or bolding, as needed, so that I can better read what you wrote.
Or not, it’s your baby.
-Midnight_Reaper
@superbattleshipyamato123 Political wise what you’re saying is very true, but game wise it might be doable+fun if given a proper set up rules to play by- it’ll be a while for me to think of something that could work without wrecking the game!
@superbattleshipyamato123 Coolio, I was thinking if Soviets+China were the AXIS there would be a Moscow Road NO to provide 6 Ipcs to China much like the OOB Burma road!
I think that if you also remove Italy out of the Axis to the Allies, then it will be a very interesting game as the remaining Axis powers, who dominate the continent, try to challenge the world’s first, second, and third largest navies (Royal navy, IJN, and Reiga marina), whilst the Allies have several (not so insignificant) footholds in Asia and Europe (or should I say bootholds?), which the Axis will have to eliminate, and it can be a challenge for Germany to eliminate France, Italy, and the Balkans before reinforcements come in (in the first turn, Italy can move the entire Tobruk stack to the continent).
Great idea! I never thought of that! Looking forward to your rules!
@superbattleshipyamato123 Interesting idea but I think it would be too hard on the Axis if All 3 world’s Navies were against them, maybe have Axis Russia stay out the War Until round 4 or until attacked to make it balanced between the two sides…
Yes, but it will certainly look hilarious when you add up Allied ships vs Axis ships at setup-don’t forget: the Soviets and Germany aren’t really affected by convoy attacks, so the Allies really only can escort transports-also, I think the Soviets should be able to declare war earlier than round 4, to continue the idea of the Axis having political initiative, if you ignore historical accuracy such as China never being able to join the Axis.
@superbattleshipyamato123
I did the math, here are the results if we add Italy, Japan, France, and Britain’s (including ANZAC) navies up at setup (not including the US) compared to your hypothetical Axis navy (Soviet Union, China, and Germany).
Battleships: 6 to 1 (in favour of the Allies)
Cruisers: 12 to 2 (in favour of the Allies)
Destroyers: 14 to 0 (in favour of the Allies)
Transports: 11 to 1 (in favour of the Allies)
Submarines: 3 to 7 (in favour of the Axis)
Aircraft carriers: 4 to 0 (in favour of the Allies)
Or:
Total ships: 46 ships to 11 ships (in favour of the Allies)
Or:
Total IPCs worth of ships count: 515 IPCs worth of ships to 93 IPCs (in favour of the Allies)
Kind of hard to win at sea when you only have a four submarine advantage over your opponent, and are outnumbered 6 to 1 in battleships and cruisers, 14 to 0 in destroyers, 4 to 0 in carriers, and 11 to 1 in transports, and your opponent having more than 5 times as much IPCs in ships as you.
Adding the US navy at setup brings another one battleship, one aircraft carrier, 3 transports, 3 cruisers, 3 destroyers, two submarines, or 13 ships, or 129 IPCs worth of ships to the Allies.
It will be fun and interesting to watch the Axis try to achieve parity or superiority.
@superbattleshipyamato123 Not doubting your point, however the Axis (Germany, Russia, Italy, China) would have the advantage of being entrenched on the mainland where the Allies have to fight through in order to Win the War- the Axis really don’t have to go overseas to Win!
Exactly, so you will have to update the winning conditions to force the Axis to have to go overseas-perhaps Axis need to take 15 victory cities on the map? Your Axis start with 7, and the most they can get from mainland Eurasia and Africa are an additional 5 victory cities-Operation Sealion, the invasion of the Philippines and the invasion of either North America, Australia, or Japan is needed.
@superbattleshipyamato123 Actually The Europe Axis starts with 6 VCs with China having none, i was thinking the AXIS would need a combined total of 10 VCs at the End of a Full Round- Allies would need to capture 2 Capitols while maintaining All their Own, including All of the African continent (excluding Strict Neutrals)!
Oops, sorry! My mistake…
The reason I hoped to do 15 victory cities is that the Axis will have to build up a big navy, instead of just doing an all continental assault, perhaps we can make it a 13 victory cities required win, as that will require at least an Operation Sealion which, without a Japanese navy to worry about, the Americans and British can completely focus on the Atlantic, which will lead to epic naval battles.
I think you should make so if China has all it’s territories captured, and the Allies control Africa (excluding strict neutrals), that combined, should be a substitute for capturing an Axis capital-it still won’t be an easy fight.
Another insane idea that I have for you is to have the US join the Axis-how you will balance this is your choice (also, please tell me how many rounds it will take for the Axis to win with only the US with the Axis).
