Subs defending transports?

[CalmDragon]

Cruiser, 2dd, 2subs with 2 transports are attacked by four fighters.
The subs and the fighters are not engaged by rule.
ca and 2dd sunk taking three fighters with them.
Since the remaining fighter can not sink the subs,
can the subs keep the transports alive?

Logically, it seems No. But by rule the sea zone is not clear if the subs wish to engage fighters that they can not mutally hit, could the transports stay alive after the dd and cruiser are sunk?

[Octopus]

I am afraid the subs cannot defend the transports from fighter and the transports are lost.

An easier way to remember this is that the subs are only visible (eligible) during a ship to ship engagement.

[katfishkris]

the phrase i use to remember transport rules is “surface warships”.  dam subs.

[CalmDragon]

Thanks.

[mojo]

this debate over subs has gone back 20 years, all the way back to classic.  why can’t we seem to get it straight?  i believe we’er playing it wrong again.  no where in the rules does it say air units cannot attack subs.  it says air units can’t attack submerged subs, and with a dd present subs cannot submerge so they can be attacked.

under the sub heading page 30 it states when a rd. of combat starts and a sub is in combat with only aircraft, it CAN submerge( before aircraft fire).  it states CAN submerge it deosn’t say must submerge.  so i believe it’s the defenders choice to submerge or not, and if not choose subs as hits.  of coarse subs cannot hit air units, but i don’t see why we can’t choose subs as hits against air units.

if i’m wrong please let me know.

[Veqryn]

It says multiple times in the rule book, plus one more time in the official FAQ & Errata, that Aircraft may NOT attack subs, unless accompanied by a destroyer.

[gnasape]

I think it’s covered in the errata about subs:

This is from IL’s post in

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12601.0

Official FAQ for AA50:

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/bb2/viewtopic.php?t=1759

It state that"

Page 30, submarines - speical abilities: The following paragraph should be added: “Cannot be hit by air units: when attaching or defending, hits scored by air units cannot be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer friendly to the air units in the battle.”

Also the rule book covers situation where if only subs or trns are in a seazone and it’s attacked by air only.

[critmonster]

I still think it is lame that G can’t use the sub to soak a hit for their cruiser if they want to. The “auto submerge” takes player options away. Wasn’t it also true that allied air inflicted substantial casualites on u-boats?

[mojo]

ya know guys i keep reading the rules and no where do i see air units cannot attack subs. give me a page #.  i believe this is an assumed rule because air units need a dd to hit subs…  and don’t point out a rule that should be added,  tell me rules that are there.

[gnasape]

@mojo:

ya know guys i keep reading the rules and no where do i see air units cannot attack subs. give me a page #.  i believe this is an assumed rule because air units need a dd to hit subs…  and don’t point out a rule that should be added,  tell me rules that are there.

Mojo,

There is no actual reference in the rule book (believe me I looked), that’s why it’s covered in the errata:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20081212

or the reference in my previous post.

It looks like having air/sub interaction only with DD was the original intent but the rule that explicitly says no air/sub interaction was left out, hence the errata.

This rule makes subs very interesting to play.

[mojo]

this is one of my problems with online games.  i use the actual board, and i have the rule book.  where do these other rules come from,  and who wrote  them, and why do we use rules not in the book?  i actually really like these subs rules better than all the other games.  subs cannot be attacked by any unit unless a dd is present,  because they have the CHOICE to submerge or not.  i think it’s pretty simple.  i don’t understand this hang-up with air units.  once a sub is submerged no units can attack it,  but out it the open they can be hit by all units.

[mojo]

ok gnasape i went to your link,  and to be honest i have no idea where these rules come from and have a hard time using rules outside of the book. but  go down to subs and it states you have a choice to submerge or not, thats my point. it’s your choice.  and air units can hit subs not submerged. it states that under the dd heading.

[gnasape]

@mojo:

this is one of my problems with online games.  i use the actual board, and i have the rule book.  where do these other rules come from,  and who wrote  them, and why do we use rules not in the book?  i actually really like these subs rules better than all the other games.   subs cannot be attacked by any unit unless a dd is present,  because they have the CHOICE to submerge or not.  i think it’s pretty simple.  i don’t understand this hang-up with air units.  once a sub is submerged no units can attack it,  but out it the open they can be hit by all units.

@mojo:

ok gnasape i went to your link,  and to be honest i have no idea where these rules come from and have a hard time using rules outside of the book. but  go down to subs and it states you have a choice to submerge or not, thats my point. it’s your choice.  and air units can hit subs not submerged. it states that under the dd heading.

Hey Mojo,

My friends and I only play the board game also.

The errata was released by WotC/Avalon Hill makers of the AA50 game, I think it also has the seal of approval from Larry Harris (designer of AA games).

The errata is intended to supplement and clarify issues with the OOB rules.

Page 30, Submarines – Special Abilities: The following paragraph should be added: “Cannot Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending, hits scored by air units cannot be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer friendly to the air units in the battle.”

The point of the new rules is that subs can’t be targeted by air unless DD is present, meaning you can’t use subs as fodder for air hits, and it doesn’t participate in a naval battle if only air units are present.

i.e., 3 ftr, 1 bmb vs. 2 subs, 2 cruisers; let’s say attacker gets 3 hits, only the 2 cruisers can be taken as casualty, you can’t sacrifice the 2 subs even if you wanted to.  As for the defenders, only the 2 cruisers would roll for defence.

i.e. 1 dest, 2 ftr, 1 bmb vs. 2 subs, 2 cruisers; same 3 hits for attackers, the subs can be taken as casualty as an enemy destroyer is present and air units can hit subs.  As for the defenders, the 2 subs would defend but only be able to target the destroyer.

It’s not a matter of submerging for subs but that air units can’t target subs unless destroyers are present.

Subs can be targeted by other naval units but not air units unless friendly destroyers are present.

[mojo]

i guess thats the question, what rules do we use?  i’ve changed rules in the past because we didn’t like the box rules,  and as long as all parties agree, lets rock. it appeares everybody likes this rule, but i don’t.  but you have 1 thing wrong. no units can hit a sub without a dd present. because subs have the choice first to submerge or not,  i do like that, without a dd on the baord subs cannot be hit, but id like  to have that same choice against air units.  thanks for your help,  i’ve been debating sub rules for so freaking long,  and i think these are the best rules so far.

[gnasape]

@mojo:

i guess thats the question, what rules do we use?  i’ve changed rules in the past because we didn’t like the box rules,  and as long as all parties agree, lets rock. it appeares everybody likes this rule, but i don’t.  but you have 1 thing wrong. no units can hit a sub without a dd present. because subs have the choice first to submerge or not,  i do like that, without a dd on the baord subs cannot be hit, but id like  to have that same choice against air units.  thanks for your help,  i’ve been debating sub rules for so freaking long,  and i think these are the best rules so far.

No problem, and yes technically subs can’t be hit if they submerge.  As for following the rules, our group tends to think of errata as an expansion of the original rules and adopt it as it clarifies many issues/questions we have.

We’ve used the same sub rules for revised and it makes for an interesting game.  Germany can buy subs for 8 IPC to sink Us/UK destroyers at 12 IPC.  Germany can rule the Atlantic!

[mojo]

thanks buddy i like it, i’ve been trying to build navy for germany for years.  once in classic i bid 18 bought a AC and put it in the med.  built my fleet up and owned the atlantic.  no units shipped from USA or UK.  it was awesome,  but my buddy built USA in the pacific, russia owned asia,  and  he took japan, so i still lost,  but what a freaking game that was.  i’ll look ya up for a game.

[gnasape]

@mojo:

thanks buddy i like it, i’ve been trying to build navy for germany for years.  once in classic i bid 18 bought a AC and put it in the med.  built my fleet up and owned the atlantic.  no units shipped from USA or UK.  it was awesome,  but my buddy built USA in the pacific, russia owned asia,  and  he took japan, so i still lost,  but what a freaking game that was.  i’ll look ya up for a game.

Not a problem, unless you’re flying to Hawaii!  We’re getting a game of Revised & Classic on 05/30/09!

As for the modified sub rules for revised, this is what we used.

1. Air can only interact with subs when destroyer is present (can be
   friendly destroyer if defending, i.e. subs vs. DD, AC with Ftr).

2. SBR damage limited to value of the territory’s IPC value/turn

3. normal bid for axis

4. unit placement change 2 subs from SZ 5 to SZ 8 (this was to offset the fleet in SZ 5 from being destroyed in 1st round.

We played two games with this setup.

First with 6 bid for Axis (2 inf to Libya) Japan took USSR and Germany held.  These changes make it expensive for Allies to shuck shuck.  Germany purchases were 2 subs and all infantry for 3 rounds.

Second game was 12 bid for Axis (2 inf to Libya, 2 inf to Ukr), game could have gone both ways.

Let me know what you think about the modification.  Probably in the wrong forum for this but it’s a continuation of our discussion so I hope it’s ok.

Happy Memorial Day!