@ckladman Yes, the game tends to favor the allies without objectives, and the axis with. To balance, you could trying giving a bid (additional starting units) to the side that is at a disadvantage, or play with objectives but reduce the payout. (3 ipcs vs 5.)
GB Heavy Bombers
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I see Heavy Bombers(HB) referenced on here from time to time, along w/ other gripes or suggestions pertaining to SBRs…
Short of Germany gaining Imp AA and Imp Factories technologies - what can Germany do to keep from being completely crippled by GB when they, as they always seem to in our games, get HB? Once that happens the game seems to be all but over. Double so if the US gets them and sends a couple over also. You can pretty much bet on at least 2 new bombers/turn being purchased and placed.
Between the impact of HB’s in the European Theater and Long Range Aircraft in the Pacific - I’m more than a little irked that these 2 seem to throw the game out of balance in our games. I’d guess we’re just not diverse enough in the way we approach the game to counter these things.
If it were up to me I’d do away w/ SBR and other “non-fighting” ways of doing damage - though I understand this is, and was, a legit way of conducting a war. Just much less satisfying to me:)
We considered limiting each factory to only be SBR’d by 1 or 2 HB max, sort of like Rockets are limited, but have not yet.
We don’t currently use any of the escort or defending fighter rules. Maybe that is a place to start… Any ideas would be most welcome and sorry if this a repeat or if I’m banging on something that has already been beaten to death.
DY
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our group has the same "oh no… heavy bombers… it’s game over… AAAAAHHHHH!!!..) gaming style, i think if it continues i’m gonna suggest what i think are the tournament rules from revised: SBR - roll 2 dice, take the better result and add 1… attacking - roll 2 dice and use only one of them
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You could get HB first, is it game over for the allies then?
Honestly, with as many games as I have seen where America is taken by Japan before Russia, Germany or Italy fall, I have to chuckle when I see HBs being touted as game breaking. Most of the time, the Allies have HBs when America falls and Japan has no technologies at all.
Paratroopers are more powerful than HBs
Mechanized Infantry is more powerful than HBs
Improved Factories are incredibly more powerful than HBsRadar is on par with HBs
War Bonds is on par with HBs
Rockets is on par with HBs
Long Range Aircraft is on Par with HBs
Jet Fighters are on Par with HBsEverything else is weaker than HBs.
If there is any fix the game needs, it would be upping cruisers to a 4/4 unit to bring them to equal strength as bombers and giving Battleships AA Guns (upgradable to Radar. And yes, I know Carriers had more AA Guns than BBs, but BBs are so expensive and Carriers get fighters, so BBs are more logical for game balance.)
What I can say is this:
I will give England Heavy Bombers if you give Germany Mechanized Infantry
I will give America Heavy Bombers if you give Japan Improved FactoriesBetcha the Axis win.
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HBs are teh most powerful tech in AA50, EOD!
My advise on tech is the same as advice on drugs, just don’t do it!
If you still want to play with tech, you can agree that you remove HBs from the tech chart, so if anyone gets HB they roll again.
As for Jen, I give you war bonds if I get HBs :-P
I give you radar if I get HBs :-P
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The only “solution” I’ve seen with any success, aside from tech solutions is to build factories in POL and possible CZE, or atleast control KAR or CAU…
Factories with a lower output value, are much more economic against HB
For example, if I hit a factory in POL with 10 heavy bombers, and max out the 6 IPC damage ratio, it costs you 7 IPC’s for your first infantry and 4 ipc’s for the next two.
However, if I hit a factory in GER with 10 heavy bombers and max out the 20 IPC damage, it costs you 14 for your first infantry, and 4 ipc’s for the rest of the infantry after that.
and of course, in smaller zones, this is more effective.
If you see the HB coming, and are in a decent position (probably 60/40 for you) Consider European Axis Factory Builds, or an Egypt build.
You are going to spend the 15 IPC’s in SBR Repairs anyways.
I recommend then of course, upping your tech game, and building AA guns :P
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@Cmdr:
You could get HB first, is it game over for the allies then?
Honestly, with as many games as I have seen where America is taken by Japan before Russia, Germany or Italy fall, I have to chuckle when I see HBs being touted as game breaking. Most of the time, the Allies have HBs when America falls and Japan has no technologies at all.
Ahhh yes… why didn’t we think of that. Have the Axis get HB first. That’ll fix everything. I now see the fault of our ways.
Whatever numbers you care to throw together to justify arguments as to which tech is more or less powerful is fine by me; right, wrong or otherwise. We don’t use calcs, we don’t run numbers. We play. That’s it. Our games just HAPPEN to see GB end up w/ HB and from there on out its awful hard to counter. Just happens that way. I was simply looking for suggestions for how to improve OUR game.
Thanks Gargantua, Subotai, and keplar for your constructive and helpful suggestions, which is what I was looking for.
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I totally agree. If two strong players play each outer, and US (or UK) get Heavy Bombers, the Allies simply cannot lose. I don’t think that any serous players use this rule, but rather the A&A Revised tournament rule:
“Roll two dice each on attack or defense and use the better result of the two dice. On a strategic bombing raid, roll two dice, take the better result, and add “1” to that result to determine the damage done by that Heavy Bomber.”
And besides the obvious that the Allies will win if US or UK get this tech, I think it quite bizarre to make Heavy Bombers so effective against factories. After the war, it was quite clear that SBR were not so effective as the US-propaganda said. At least not until late in the war. Surly, the barbaric terror-bombing at the end of cities like Dresden and Hiroshima, were killing everything in its way. Both factories and civilians. 135 000 in Dresden and 129 000 in Hiroshima. But, this was very late in the war.
On the other hand, this is just a fun war game, and you should not think “historically”. Because if you do, an even more bizarre thing is that primitive terror weapons V1 and V2 can fire 1 d6 against factories! Come on. If the V1 or V2 would hit a cow eating grass on the fields near London, the Germans should be happy! But hitting a factory with 1d6 every turn?? Nah… don’t think so… :-)
Damn… when you think of it… Perhaps one shouldn’t use technology at all?
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I think a good counter to HB is the interceptor house rule. Having to protect your bombers with fighters make it much more costly.
Also changing the rule back to where an AA gun can whenever a plain flies over it, not just a factory. an AA gun in Nwestern Europe adds an extra layer or two of defense. Also, my house rules gives that option to fighters as well. Whenever a plane flies over enemy territory, if an enemy fighter is present, I see no reason why that fighter can’t scramble and take a shot.
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Yeah I think I like the modified tournament rules. Simple enough and less to worry about that using the interceptor/escort rules.
We’ll see what we end up with. Stuck in the current game but hopefully we can get something figured out before the next one.
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@Subotai:
HBs are teh most powerful tech in AA50, EOD!
My advise on tech is the same as advice on drugs, just don’t do it!
If you still want to play with tech, you can agree that you remove HBs from the tech chart, so if anyone gets HB they roll again.
As for Jen, I give you war bonds if I get HBs :-P
I give you radar if I get HBs :-P
Radar might be doable, but if you are saying that Heavy Bombers are it, they are automatic game over for the side that didn’t get them first, then you should give me my pick of technologies.
I assure you, I’ll absolutely murder whoever is my opponent if all they have are Heavy Bombers and I get Mechanized Infantry or Paratroopers for Germany - if I am facing an opponent of the same caliber as me that is.
Heavy Bombers are nice, I wouldn’t throw them away, but when I go for tech, that is not the one I am going for! I’d MUCH rather have Paratroopers!
If I am Germany or America (in a KGF situation only) I’d much rather have Mechanized Infantry. By the time you get those stupid bombers to pay off, Moscow will be garrisoned by dozens of tanks and some left over infantry.
War Bonds are just on par with Heavy Bombers because it’s effectively an ANTI-Heavy bomber (turning Heavy Bombers into normal Bombers again, and normal bombers take more damage then they give to the enemy.)
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