Ups, my fault. Gibraltar is not considered a canal, so in theory u can pass with transport, but only to be stopped by the destroyer as mentioned earlier in this topic.
BTW: We play Gibraltar-Morocco as canal as a house-rule, perhaps that explains my post above.
Germany Basic Strategies, Concepts and Ideas
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I was speaking of the battle with the UK fighter included.
The UK has a destroyer at 2, a Cruiser at 3, the Fighter at 3, and the bomber at 4.
Italy has 2 Cruisers at 3, and the Battleship at 4. The battleships ability to take 1 free hit offsets the destroyers attack at 2 in my mind. Equal hits by either side in the first round leads to a dead even fight.
If Italy looses it’s navy the Axis may or may not gain territory in Africa. They do have 2 infantry in Libya and I have taken Egypt with these before and then covered them with German and Japanese units just so they could wander around Africa while the Allies chased after them.
If England looses the units involved in that same battle they are out some very nice naval and air pieces that they will find hard to replace. After Japan 2 England should solidly be in the 30 or lower IPC range even if they hold all of Africa. Hard to replace bombers and cruisers and buy transports and men to put on them at that level of income.
I have personally experienced both sides of the above outcomes in the game and I would much prefer the Italian position than the English one if something goes wrong.
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@Cmdr:
However, I would say hit SZ 2 and Karelia hard. (Inf, Art, 2 Arm in Karelia, SZ 2 cleared, 4 Inf, 4 fig, bmb, AA gun in Norway)
Please clarify this. Where are you getting the Inf, Art, and 2 Arm to have in Karelia after you take it? you may only attack it with 2 Inf from Finland and 1 Transport load, and if you take any losses, are you going to sacrifice Fighters before Infantry?
Also, how are you getting 2 extra Infantry and the AA gun to Norway? You only have 1 Transport. And are you taking no Fighter losses? I am confused.
2 Infantry from Finland to Karelia
Infantry, Artillery, Fighter from Germany to Karelia
Fighter from Norway to Karelia
Fighter from NW Europe to karelia
Cruiser bombardment of Karelia
Fighter from Poland to KareliaODDs: Infantry, Artillery, 2 or 3 Fighters survive
NCM: 2 Armor form Poland through Baltic States to Karelia (you should have attacked Baltic with 3 Infantry, 2 Armor from Czech which would normally give you 1 or 2 infantry and 2 armor there as well.)
Result: Karelia has Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor
SZ 2: 2 Submarines, 1 Bomber
Norway would be a great place to land all your planes since it makes life difficult for England when it comes time to build things.
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NCM: 2 Armor from Poland through Baltic States to Karelia
Is this a legal move? In my gaming group, we have always played that you couldn’t Non-Combat Move into or through a territory which was just captured in the same turn. Like, if Italy captures Egypt and Transjordan on the same turn, then during his Non-Combat Move Phase, I understand that he can’t move through the Suez, because he wasen’t in control of it at the beginning of his turn.
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NCM: 2 Armor from Poland through Baltic States to Karelia
Is this a legal move? In my gaming group, we have always played that you couldn’t Non-Combat Move into or through a territory which was just captured in the same turn. Like, if Italy captures Egypt and Transjordan on the same turn, then during his Non-Combat Move Phase, I understand that he can’t move through the Suez, because he wasen’t in control of it at the beginning of his turn.
It is a legal move. pag. 21 of the AA50 Manual, Phase 5 Noncombat Move:
Where Units Can Move
Land Units: Land units can move into any friendly territories. They cannot move into hostile territories (not even those that contain no combat units but are enemy-controlled). Note, this the only phase in which antiaircraft guns can move.
…
Air units: an air units must end its move in an eligible landing space. Bombers and fighters may land in any territory that was friendly at the start of your turn.
…
Neither bombers nor fighters may land in any territory that was hostile at the start of your turn, including any territory that was just captured by you this turn.For air units it is clearly stated that they can not end noncombat move in a space that was hostile at the start of the turn. No similar remarks is done for the land units, so there is no ditinction for friendly territories conquered or owned at the start of the turn. They are friendly in the NCM and then the land units may move in.
Regarding canals, pag. 7 of the AA50 Manual, Canals:
… A canal is not considered a space, so it doesn’t block land movement: Land unit can move freely between Trans-Jordan and Egypt. …
Canal has no influence on the land units movements.
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The example of the Suez Canal was for ships that want to go through the canal. I believe that it is stated that your side must control both sides of the canal at the beginning of your turn for your ships to be able to move through it at any point in your turn, including non-combat. My group and I have always played it this way, but if we are wrong, could someone let me know? Thanks in advance.
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Yes, you are correct in that notion, ships may not pass unless you’ve control both sides of the Suez Canal. However, I think that you can still pass through even if you just captured both sides on your combat phase. I’m not definite but I’m thinking it’s more than likely. Speaking of which, I meant to propose to people who wish it, that the Dardenelles (between Bulgaria/Romania and Turkey) cannot be passed unless on controls Bulgaria Romania, and that the Straits of Gibraltar (between Gibraltar and Morroco/Algeria) cannot be passed unless one controls Gibraltar. Of course this is nowhere stated in the rules, but it is more realistic historically, as Russian ships could not leave the Black Sea, and Axis ships could not leave the Mediterranean. My friends and I have agreed on this, though it curtails Italian expansion to the West, unless the Axis take Gibraltar. We thought about similiar rules regarding the Sound between Denmark and Southern Sweden, gaining or denying entrance to the Baltic, but found them unfair, as Germany could then build a massive fleet with impunity. Anyway those are simply some house rules we use, to add more historic flavor, if you like the sound of them, use them, if you think it’s a bad idea, don’t use them. Just putting in my 2 cents……
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The example of the Suez Canal was for ships that want to go through the canal. I believe that it is stated that your side must control both sides of the canal at the beginning of your turn for your ships to be able to move through it at any point in your turn, including non-combat. My group and I have always played it this way, but if we are wrong, could someone let me know? Thanks in advance.
You are right about the Canal, your side have to control both sides from the start of your turn in order to allow to your naval unit to move through the canal. But this have nothing to do with your original question:
NCM: 2 Armor from Poland through Baltic States to Karelia
Is this a legal move? In my gaming group, we have always played that you couldn’t Non-Combat Move into or through a territory which was just captured in the same turn. Like, if Italy captures Egypt and Transjordan on the same turn, then during his Non-Combat Move Phase, I understand that he can’t move through the Suez, because he wasen’t in control of it at the beginning of his turn.
What I pointed out is that in the rulebook there is no rule that forbids to land units of moving into friendly territories in the NCM. The territory have to be friendly at the start of the NCM there is no other requirements. Canal rule have nothing to do with this.
So the answer to your original question: “NCM: 2 Armor from Poland through Baltic States to Karelia - Is this a legal move?” is Yes, it is a legal move.
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@Cmdr:
2 Infantry from Finland to Karelia
Infantry, Artillery, Fighter from Germany to Karelia
Fighter from Norway to Karelia
Fighter from NW Europe to karelia
Cruiser bombardment of Karelia
Fighter from Poland to KareliaODDs: Infantry, Artillery, 2 or 3 Fighters survive
These numbers are slightly incorrect.
With 4 fighters you can pretty much expect to lose 1 to AA.
The remaining units would be [3 inf, 1 art, 3 fig, 1 CA] v. [5 inf, 1 art] which means that the attacker averages 3 hits and the defender 2 in the first round.
That leaves roughly [1 inf, 1 art, 3 fig] v. [2 inf, 1 art] with the attacker getting 2 hits to the defender’s 1.
So you end up with [1 art, 3 fig] v. [1 art].
I figure with an extra hit or miss here and there the attacker in this battle would have an expected “window” of between 3 and 5 units remaining. Now, I know that if you had 4 or 5 units remaining you would be able to take Karelia without any moral dilemmas, but suppose that you had [1 art, 3 fig] and you had to take a casualty.
Do you clear Karelia and fly off 3 fighters or do you lose a fighter and take Karelia?
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My experience, and Frood supports my experienced results, is that you end up with Karelia most of the time with 2 or 3 fighters, Infantry and Artillery. (Usually 3 fighters.)
Frood is telling me 22% with Infantry, Artillery, 3 Fighters
if you don’t elect to lose another fighter to have that second ground unit, and do take the extra hit, it’s 20% you have Artillery, 3 Fighters (though in the last battle, I’d lose a fighter to keep Karelia in a strong enough position it CANNOT be liberated giving me position, strength and a National Advantage twice. That’s a trade of 10 IPC for a fighter for +10 IPC in National Objectives, +4 in Territory and +6 in an AA Gun I can walk out over two rounds.)
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@Cmdr:
if you don’t elect to lose another fighter to have that second ground unit, and do take the extra hit, it’s 20% you have Artillery, 3 Fighters (though in the last battle, I’d lose a fighter to keep Karelia in a strong enough position it CANNOT be liberated giving me position, strength and a National Advantage twice. That’s a trade of 10 IPC for a fighter for +10 IPC in National Objectives, +4 in Territory and +6 in an AA Gun I can walk out over two rounds.)
Hmm.
Let’s assume Germany takes with an art and then NCMs in the 2 tanks.I see Russia with a 75% chance of countering those three units with 4 inf, tank.
That doesn’t allow the gun to be walked out, and reduces your return on the battle computations (minus 2 tanks that only defended, not attacked) you are spouting as the reason to do this combat.
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Why are you assuming higher than expected losses for Germany though?
And let’s pretend that it does go badly, it could, it is not likely according to the calculators, but it could, then it would still be Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor in Karelia because you would just elect to lose the second fighter instead of the infantry. The cost of a fighter is 10 IPC, you get +5 IPC from the NO that round, +2 IPC from the ground that round so that’s almost the cost of your fighter right off the bat. (Besides, Germany wants bombers anyway, fighters are nice, I just don’t buy them anymore, not throwing the ones I start with out, just not buying new ones.)
But wait, jim, that’s not all, because with an Infantry, Artillery and 2 Armor in Karelia it’s almost impossible for Russia to liberate it this round! That means another +5 IPC for the NO and +2 IPC for the ground NEXT round and, as an added bonus, if you call in the next 5 minutes, you’ll also be walking that 6 IPC AA Gun out of Karelia to Poland where you can build your own industrial complex (and I recommend building one eventually, not in rounds one or two).
So for 10 IPC fighter you get +10 IPC for the NO, +4 IPC for the land and +6 IPC for the AA Gun. A whopping 200% return on investment!
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Cmdr, definitely worth playtesting. I hadn’t thought of it… I think a good use of armor, and brutal for Russia to lose it for two rounds. If you end up with only 1 inf, you just leave the tanks at home.
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It’s been play tested. :) All I want to know is if there is a better opponent I have not met that can survive it long enough for England to capitalize on having a cruiser, 2 destroyers and a transport before Moscow falls?
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@Cmdr:
My experience, and Frood supports my experienced results, is that you end up with Karelia most of the time with 2 or 3 fighters, Infantry and Artillery. (Usually 3 fighters.)
Frood is telling me 22% with Infantry, Artillery, 3 Fighters
if you don’t elect to lose another fighter to have that second ground unit, and do take the extra hit, it’s 20% you have Artillery, 3 Fighters (though in the last battle, I’d lose a fighter to keep Karelia in a strong enough position it CANNOT be liberated giving me position, strength and a National Advantage twice. That’s a trade of 10 IPC for a fighter for +10 IPC in National Objectives, +4 in Territory and +6 in an AA Gun I can walk out over two rounds.)
Well, I ran Frood in a bunch of different ways and all I came up with is that about 60% of the time Germany suvives that battle with 4 or less units and 40% of the time with 3 or less units so your estimate of most likely coming away with 1 inf, 1 art, 3 fig is, as usual for you, optimistic. Almost as optimistic as you expecting to clear Egypt without using the bomber.
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1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig OR 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig is more than 40% of the time. More units or less units is 60% of the time (pretty evenly split.)
If you run it on frood, you have to remember to put 2 Atk. Tra/land units die last to get accurate numbers, that’s where you’re coming up lacking I think.
90% Germany wins, 10% Germany loses (rounded of course)
Out of that 90% almost the entire 90% is with two ground units at least (meaning Inf, Art, 2 Arm in Karelia for Russia 1 to deal with.)
Attacker results:
Probability % # units / losses cost
4.79% 8: 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. no units. : 0 IPCs
15.34% 7: 2 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 1 Inf. : 3 IPCs
23.9% 6: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 2 Inf. : 6 IPCs
23.5% 5: 1 Art, 4 Fig. 3 Inf. : 9 IPCs
0.04% 5: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig. 2 Inf, 1 Fig. : 16 IPCs
13.75% 4: 1 Art, 3 Fig. 3 Inf, 1 Fig. : 19 IPCs
0.05% 4: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig. 2 Inf, 2 Fig. : 26 IPCs
6.58% 3: 1 Art, 2 Fig. 3 Inf, 2 Fig. : 29 IPCs
0.04% 3: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Fig. 2 Inf, 3 Fig. : 36 IPCs
3.9% 2: 1 Art, 1 Fig. 3 Inf, 3 Fig. : 39 IPCs
0.01% 2: 1 Inf, 1 Art. 2 Inf, 4 Fig. : 46 IPCs
1.93% 1: 1 Art. 3 Inf, 4 Fig. : 49 IPCs
6.17% 0: no units. 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. : 53 IPCs -
@Cmdr:
Jennifer’s Basic German Strategy Guide for 1941:
Germany:
You need to do maximum impact on Russia as fast as possible with Germany, only diverting enough equipment as needed to protect Italy’s fleet that first round.
For this, a 4 prong offensive might be best.
1) Amphibiously assault Karelia. You should get it every time with various losses, once I even got it without loss, which was a fun game!
Cost analysis:
-3 Infantry, -1 Fighter: Cost 19 IPC
Destroy 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery: Benefit: 19 IPC
Capture AA Gun: +6 IPC
Collect for Land: +2 IPC
Collect for National Objective: +5 IPCNet: +13 IPC (+7 if you don’t consider taking the AA Gun into account.)
- Hit Baltic States, East Poland and Ukraine.
Cost: 1 or 2 Infantry >> -6 IPC
Destroy 7 Infantry >> +21 IPC
Collect for Land >> 4 IPC
Collect for NO >> 5 IPCNet: +24 IPC
3) Attack Egypt. This isn’t meant to TAKE Egypt, but to weaken the British severely. I’ve found that if you do not even attack Egypt with Germany, Italy can be wiped out in short order and has NO CHANCE at getting the second National Objective ever. Not to mention, Egypt is a great place for a British Industrial complex later in the game.
Cost: 2 Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor >> -20 IPC
Destroy: 3 Infantry, Artillery, Armor >> +18 IPC
Net: -2 IPC4) Naval assaults on England. Primarily you have to clear the Cruiser/Destroyer from SZ 12 to protect the Italian fleet. I usually attack the destroyer in SZ 6 too since it’s the only thing your submarine can do anyway and it’s a 50/50 shot at sinking another British ship.
Cost: 1 or 2 submarines >> -6-12 IPC (none of which you need)
Destroy: Cruiser and 1 or 2 Destroyers >> +20-28 IPCNet: +8-22 IPC
As far as builds go, I’m thinking that in 1941 we need more and more armor than we did in Revised. We cannot neglect infantry, but we can bring that Armor/Infantry ratio up closer to 50/50. Remember, Russia starts with no fighters, so they’re trading tanks just about every round, so Germany can also afford to trade tanks.
If you find your builds getting maxed out you can build a complex in Poland. This is a 3 IPC territory, so you’ll be producing 3-5 units there easily (with Improved Factories) and it’s limited in damage it can take from allied bombing runs! (6 IPC max.) This by itself would make it a more valuable building location than France, but wait, Jim, there’s more! Poland is two zones CLOSER to Russia than France is! That means you can put Infantry into Poland and have the Armor in Germany catch up with them the next round in East Poland.
Technology: Tech is the backbone of this game. I have not seen a single game played where one side had technology and the other side did not and still won.
Okay, tech is a bit random, so what? You have a choice on what chart you roll on, so that’ll help a lot, and really, outside of Super Submarines, I don’t see a “bad” technology on the charts. (Thinking about it, if we fixed Super Submarines to negate Battleship 2 hit abilities, then they would be good!)
I like chart 1 for Germany. Improved Factories are great (especially for a poland complex or even Karelia.) War bonds are okay, at least they can offset SBR damage. Mechanized infantry and paratroopers are wicked. (Paratroopers are great for getting Italian National Objectives and liberating things like Finland and Norway. I’ve even toyed with a Sea Lion attempt from the air once or twice.)
Should Germany SBR?
I guess that sort of depends. Definitely not on round 1! But later, it can be helpful if England’s being a nuissance or if you think Russia got lucky and you need to knock their income back down. But generally speaking, those German bombers are really nice for hitting the enemy ground units and not so much the complexes.
Caveat: England has no Industrial Complexes outside of England itself, Japan and Italy have taken away all of England’s National Objectives, should you SBR? In this case, I would hit England with 3 or 4 bombers and the reason being that England’s only earning in the low 30s, upper 20s. if you can do 10-16 IPC damage (which 3 or 4 bombers should easily do) then you’ve eliminated them as a serious threat to France. Note, in most games, America is hardly a threat to the woman hood of France let alone the German army there. This would mean you could pull most, if not all, of those troops out and send them towards Russia.
Key Territories:
1) East Poland is a HUGE territory for you! From here you can hit Baltic States, Belarus, East Ukraine and Ukraine. As long as you have a stack here, your National Objective in this region should be secured each round.
2) Karelia: As Russia’s weakest link, you may as well go for this one first. It’s worth +7 IPC a round (5 for the National Objective and 2 for the territory.) It also allows you to trade Arkhangelsk (threatening his NO) and to threaten Scandinavia (Finland/Norway.) The miracle happens if you get Improved Factories and Karelia, now you’re dumping +4 Infantry a round up there!
3) France: You need to defend France from British incursions as soon as possible. Normally this is Italy’s job, but Italy can find itself hard pressed if things go poorly. For England, France is worth 11 IPC. For Germany France is also worth 11 IPC.
Most useful units: Infantry, Armor, Bombers (Artillery if you have Advanced Artillery)
Very similar to what I do, however, it is very hard to win all of these, it thins you out too much. I usually don’t do all of these. I don’t play with Tech though (fun sometimes, but it makes the game too dicey). Can you do this w/o tech???
Questioneer
:?
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You should actually win all of them, Questioner. They all have 85-99% odds of success, give or take. I posted the numbers somewhere, and I don’t feel like going to Frood and running them again just to post them again.
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@Cmdr:
You should actually win all of them, Questioner. They all have 85-99% odds of success, give or take. I posted the numbers somewhere, and I don’t feel like going to Frood and running them again just to post them again.
your right, but what i meant is that you thin yourself out too much verses a strong KGF. I realize that taking some risks as Germany is necessary if you are going to win with them, but against a good allied player, he’s gonna find an imbalance or crease to take advantage of ( I can expand on this more later if you want). Unless you play with a bid or something, in which case I would put it in Africa.
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I agree, you are quite thin for the next round. You should have recovered greatly by round 3, especially with +15+15+15 National Objective Income over those three rounds.
Meanwhile, your bombers should be enough to keep the allies at least restrained in the Atlantic.
The idea behind my approach is to break Russia early. They only have the one tank and by hitting Karelia you force them to use the tank in Karelia (meaning not in Ukraine, East Poland or Baltic States.)
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@Cmdr:
1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig OR 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig is more than 40% of the time. More units or less units is 60% of the time (pretty evenly split.)
If you run it on frood, you have to remember to put 2 Atk. Tra/land units die last to get accurate numbers, that’s where you’re coming up lacking I think.
90% Germany wins, 10% Germany loses (rounded of course)
Out of that 90% almost the entire 90% is with two ground units at least (meaning Inf, Art, 2 Arm in Karelia for Russia 1 to deal with.)
Attacker results:
Probability % # units / losses cost
4.79% 8: 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. no units. : 0 IPCs
15.34% 7: 2 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 1 Inf. : 3 IPCs
23.9% 6: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 2 Inf. : 6 IPCs
23.5% 5: 1 Art, 4 Fig. 3 Inf. : 9 IPCs
0.04% 5: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig. 2 Inf, 1 Fig. : 16 IPCs
13.75% 4: 1 Art, 3 Fig. 3 Inf, 1 Fig. : 19 IPCs
0.05% 4: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig. 2 Inf, 2 Fig. : 26 IPCs
6.58% 3: 1 Art, 2 Fig. 3 Inf, 2 Fig. : 29 IPCs
0.04% 3: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Fig. 2 Inf, 3 Fig. : 36 IPCs
3.9% 2: 1 Art, 1 Fig. 3 Inf, 3 Fig. : 39 IPCs
0.01% 2: 1 Inf, 1 Art. 2 Inf, 4 Fig. : 46 IPCs
1.93% 1: 1 Art. 3 Inf, 4 Fig. : 49 IPCs
6.17% 0: no units. 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. : 53 IPCsYes I did specify that 2 ground units must survive and the numbers I got were nowhere near as bad for the Russians as yours. Looks like, at the very least, you forgot to include the AA gun in you sim.
And you can’t use the LHTR or Revised options for the sim because the DD shot is an auto-kill in Revised but in AA50 the hit unit gets to return fire before it dies. You might have to select the Europe option but I don’t exactly know the rules for Europe so I don’t know if it follows the revised rules for bombardments or AA50’s.
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