AARHE: Air Combat

[oldsalty]

We are finding the current air combat rules balanced and easy to follow with one exception that I can’t find the answer to.

When both sides have air units during a land battle, air supremecy is first resolved.  However, current rules dictate that air control must first be resolved.  Where we are struggling is when 5 attacking air units are held in air combat only by one defending air unit.

This argument can be applied to SBR and land combat.

Thoughts?

[Imperious Leader]

ok this is easy.

each plane by type rolls out separately.

all Fighters roll out and if they hit the defender, then the bombers can then roll out against land targets

But all those fighters are stuck not rolling against land targets till they kill the defending fighter, so you may have to waste a few rolls with overkill.

Roll each type of plane separately, trying to finish off the defenders…but you dont get to roll one at a time hoping to use the remaining planes of the same type on other targets.

Tekkyy is making some changes to AARHE 4.0 for clarifications like this.

Thanks for supporting AARHE!

[Bierwagen]

We had some similiar problems with this in the past OldSalty.  Never did sort it out.

Some of our more creative rule lawers developed a tactic around it.

It happened several times that UK/US was able to send 2 ARM & 2 INF to invade Germany which was defended by only 2 INF and 5 FTR.  So, UK sent in a bomber on a suicide mission to tie up the 5 FTRs hoping that they could destroy the 2 INF in the first round of land combat.  Then by definition all 5 FTR would have to retreat because they had no supporting land units on the next round of combat.

Needless to say this caused quite an uproar with the Air Combat interpretations. Especially considering the fact that a bomber doesn’t even get an air attack roll during the Air Superiority phase – we called this a foul – but by the rule definitions is was legal.

How could a lone bomber tie up the entire German AF when Berlin itself was threatened?

Eventually, people just got wise and never relied on air power alone to defend critical infrastructure.  Nothing like boots on the ground.

We were trying to come up with some rules that allowed you to divert overwhelming air power to the ground conflict, but it all became to complicated.

[Imperious Leader]

Some of our more creative rule lawers developed a tactic around it.

It happened several times that UK/US was able to send 2 ARM & 2 INF to invade Germany which was defended by only 2 INF and 5 FTR.  So, UK sent in a bomber on a suicide mission to tie up the 5 FTRs hoping that they could destroy the 2 INF in the first round of land combat.  Then by definition all 5 FTR would have to retreat because they had no supporting land units on the next round of combat.

Needless to say this caused quite an uproar with the Air Combat interpretations. Especially considering the fact that a bomber doesn’t even get an air attack roll during the Air Superiority phase – we called this a foul – but by the rule definitions is was legal.

That type of air unit does not roll against land until defending fighters are gone. So if you brought 2 bombers, 2 fighter-bombers and 3 fighters against 2 defending fighters… the fighters roll trying to get 2 hits. Lets say they get just one… so now you have to roll out the fighter bombers…lets say you get one more hit… now your last air type the bombers can now roll against land targets because the other types of planes got rid of defending planes and achieved air superiority.

How could a lone bomber tie up the entire German AF when Berlin itself was threatened?

HUH? that would never happen. If you brought in a bomber and the defender had say 2 fighters…they would roll and likely down the bomber and then be able to roll out on the second land combat sequence. A bomber would hardly EVER tie anything up unless you roll very badly.

We were trying to come up with some rules that allowed you to divert overwhelming air power to the ground conflict, but it all became to complicated.

their is no need the rules are quite clear on this.

[Bierwagen]

That’s the rub though.  If you attack 5 aircraft and 2 supporting ground pieces and you kill all the ground forces in the first cycle of combat, the planes have to retreat.

From 20080724_AARHE
Land Combat: Retreat Decision
At the end of a land combat cycle, if only one side has land units the other side must retreat. If air units
can’t land they will be destroyed in Non-Combat Move. Defender declares retreat decisions before attacker.

It is just something to be aware of when you play. Normally, a high value country like Western Europe or Germany look pretty safe when there are 5 FTR buzzing around… but if there are no boots on the ground, they retreat after the first round.

I wouldn’t be griping about it if I hadn’t seen it happen to Germany while I was playing Japan.

I found it cheesy that by throwing away a bomber on a suicide mission UK/US managed to capture Germany even though it had 5 FTRs defending (n.b., the bomber was nothing but a tool to deny the 5 FTRs a combat roll – yes, the bomber did get shot down) .  The FTRs never got a shot at defense because they were all tied up chasing the bomber… blood in the water!

The two ARM backed up by shore bombardment made quick work of the remaining defender, the Luftwaffe had to retreat by definition, and Germany fell.

Lesson learned. Defending FTRs need lots of ground forces to be effective.

[Imperious Leader]

From 20080724_AARHE
Land Combat: Retreat Decision
At the end of a land combat cycle, if only one side has land units the other side must retreat. If air units
can’t land they will be destroyed in Non-Combat Move. Defender declares retreat decisions before attacker.

what the hell? This is not AARHE. If it is written like that it needs to change. Its a typo.

don’t go by this. I never authorized such a rule. It makes no sence.

[Bierwagen]

Lies… propoganda… & rumor mongers!

They even went so far as to modify the most recent version 20081102_AARHE with thier nefarious rule modifications!

I demand to see the manager!

Muhhaaa!

One of the best selling points of AARHE is the air war.  It really changes the game for the better.  Other than this small fly in the ointment though, I can’t find much fault with it.  I do think that the air war hurts poorer nations like Russia, but with the Lend Lease program a cooperative US can keep then in business.

[Imperious Leader]

yes the balancing act here was a patchwork on historical events that are either magnified or diminished in their role, to provide a more accurate result but one that is somewhat balanced by its own merit.

The idea is if both the allies and axis play to their strengths, they can each have a chance to win but players will invariably follow some of the historical options to gain victory.

[tekkyy]

not a typo to me
concept is that air units backup group troops
and can’t defend/fight effectively on their own

it is consistent with the other rules like
When only one side has air units at the beginning of combat cycle, air units fight with normal combat values
when matched 1-to-1 with a friendly land unit. Excess air units fight at combat value of 1.

@Bierwagen:

I found it cheesy that by throwing away a bomber on a suicide mission UK/US managed to capture Germany even though it had 5 FTRs defending (n.b., the bomber was nothing but a tool to deny the 5 FTRs a combat roll – yes, the bomber did get shot down) .  The FTRs never got a shot at defense because they were all tied up chasing the bomber… blood in the water!

this is an old area of concern
we could only think of overly complex rules to handle the relative numbers of opposing air units

The two ARM backed up by shore bombardment made quick work of the remaining defender, the Luftwaffe had to retreat by definition, and Germany fell.

note is it hard for allies to amphibious assault Germany due to the canal/waterway rule

[Bierwagen]

Absolutely!

It’s just an important consideration that people need to be aware of – creative tactical use of air power – and what looks well defended by alot of air power, can be dangerous.

Normal AAR folk don’t seem to make the connection until they’ve been burned a few times.

Perhaps a tactics manual or FAQ should be created as an addendum to highlight these types of tactics.

[Imperious Leader]

When only one side has air units at the beginning of combat cycle, air units fight with normal combat values
when matched 1-to-1 with a friendly land unit. Excess air units fight at combat value of 1.

This is the rule and its correct, but its completely different from what i was thinking Bierwagen was getting at>

I thought he meant if one side has air units and the other side does not, then the air units cant fight at all and must retreat. I was incorrect in my understanding.

At the end of a land combat cycle, if only one side has land units the other side must retreat.

I was reading it as AIR UNITS… :-o

[oldsalty]

This brings up the rule for strafing.  It was a common tactic for single or more fighters to attack land units and reinforcement columns.  How does this fit into the discussions below?

The way our group plays this is fighters (without attacking land units) are allowed to attack defending land units at an attack value of 1.  Fighters are then allowed only one round of attacks.

Comments?  Should attacking fighters without ground unit support be allowed to attack more than one round of combat?

[Imperious Leader]

The rules already cover the idea of planes flying over to just engage other planes. Lets look at them:

ok here we go again…

IT USED TO BE IN THE FILE UNDER COUNTER-AIR. Now the section has been changed yet again and CA is not explained.

Tekkyy??? why?

Anyway-

Counter air is one round of air combat using air values. It allows just air to air units to hit to model the control of the sky thing.

I suppose your modification is ok and i see that rolling a 1 to hit will make for a weak possibility to kill planes, but it should also work.

[tekkyy]

@oldsalty:

The way our group plays this is fighters (without attacking land units) are allowed to attack defending land units at an attack value of 1.  Fighters are then allowed only one round of attacks.

your group’s interpretion of the rule is correct

the idea is that defending land units have nothing to fight so they stay in bunkers and what not
attacking air units in excess of attacking land units can still do damage, but at a reduced rate

I think its ok, unless there is a problem I am not seeing

@Imperious:

The rules already cover the idea of planes flying over to just engage other planes. Lets look at them:

think you misunderstood oldsalty
he is not talking about counter-air

IT USED TO BE IN THE FILE UNDER COUNTER-AIR. Now the section has been changed yet again and CA is not explained.
Tekkyy??? why?

yeah I got your PM
repeating my reply for others:

the paragraph “Counter-Air” merely explains the effect unique to Counter-Air
hence it looks a bit short
rules common to all air missions are written under the paragraph “Air Missions”

Counter air is one round of air combat using air values. It allows just air to air units to hit to model the control of the sky thing.

you can already perform an attack with only air units like in OOB/LHTR
air units then engage enemy air units

what Counter-Air is, is that it stops the defender from running (via air unit relocation rule “Defensive Air Support”) from the Counter-Air attack