Not a bad response. the 4 tanks against USSR weakness is offset by the fewer troops you need to leave at home in german lands to defend against atlantic attack for several turns.
The all allied fleet in Z8 can be hit by battleship, transpot, sub, and 6 german planes from western europe. Slightly expensive, but very favorable battle for germany (99% chance of win, average IPC loss of 27 vs 76). Then 6 baltic german ships can go wherever they want and on the allied moves there are not enough british or us planes to mount an effective turn 2 attack on them either.
So by making britain build 5 infantry (instead of fleet) and US move guys to england (or something similar) the operation sealion threat has some useful side effects.
I didn’t notice those 6 figs on weu. Even a block with soviet sub is not enough then. Well, I guess then I would cancel the IC and build some fleet
I think that the tatic is good to change the pace of the game and make the great britian player take notice. Otherwise you are playing directly into the allied hands.
I have tried this several times. In some sort or another.
Against an unexperienced player, this WILL work. Germany doesnt have to worry about UK, Japan will have a field day with US and UK focusing fully on defending UK.
Against an experienced player…you are screwed.
Your fleet will die. That’s one certainty. It will die in round 3 or 4. US will make sure that happens.
After that, it will be an easy job for the Allies to take Germany. (Since you were moving everything you had to Russia, and wasted money on the fleet)
So you need to be sure to have taken Russia or UK in G3, G4 max. Or else it will only have delayed Allied Victory.
Woodstock,
I think you are half right. It will only play out like that with a week allied player. But I think if the Allied player was going for a KJF they may have enough assests tied up that Germany could pull it off.
LT
As soon as you put ships in the Baltic, a smart allied player will just stack London immediately and prepare to back it with the US.
I don’t see how anyone gets ‘Sea Lioned’, except on the cheap shot Tech roll. Unless your opponent seriously drops the ball, or doesn’t know what they’re doing to begin with, its extremely difficult to take out the UK in the second round. Damn near impossible in the third. Its not the kind of thing you can really plan a strategy around, though if you’re discrete about your naval build up, you might be able to catch someone off guard once in a blue moon. The problem is, if you bid a transport in sz 5 and make a heavy transport build on G1, then the Allied player has to be a complete moron not to realize what he’s up against. If you play it smooth, you might be able to keep a carrier alive into the 3rd round, but then you’re playing a whole psych game with your opponent. Building ships as G is more of a rookie play, so you almost have to convince the other guy that you don’t really know what you’re doing, in order to slip the naval build by them. There’s a reason why the more experienced players focus on the Luftwaffe or Tanks though. Ships tie you down and have to be defended, and more often than not, you’re fighters just end up at the bottom of the sea along with any carriers you might have bought. Also, when Russia is indomitable on the Eastern Front, its much harder for the Japs to press the attack, which almost neutralizes the added pressure you’re placing on the UK.
I don’t know, I’m not going to say I’ve never seen it happen, but usually if someone manages to snatch London, its because of some oversight in the allied defenses that is exploited, more than any grand strategic planning by the German player.
Another possibility (and I don’t really recommend this, but I have seen it done) is to save your cash with Germany so that you can spend 80+ ipcs at once. A save-move will always draw suspicion from the Allied player, but it sometimes gives you a few more options than you’d have with a more prolonged build up. And if it doesn’t work out, you can always just drop a massive tank stack at the last minute, instead of committing to a navy. Again though, saving is not something I would usually recommend for the Axis, because the clock is always ticking.
:)
@LT04:
Woodstock,
I think you are half right. It will only play out like that with a week allied player. But I think if the Allied player was going for a KJF they may have enough assests tied up that Germany could pull it off.
LT
Just like the guy above me, you’re buy will give away your plan.
And only a moronic Allied player would then engage on a KJF.
If you see German ships duplicate in the Baltic on G1, that should be your cue to trample Germany from the Eastern front with Russia, supported by UK shipping untis to Karelia.
One time I tried a Sealion by hording IPC’s as Germany. I bought the standard 5ish INF every turn then I overwhelmed the Baltic with transports.
UK was not able to handle that since they had put so much into a S Africa IC and a India IC. The US was two turns away from really being able to help as well.
After a few more rounds the US retook London as I felt Moscow was more important.
LT
(Edit) Again like stated above the Allies are not stupid but you can suprise them. They knew I was up to something so they were cautious but couldn’t figure out what.
Also I think it is worth mentioning that this was a KJF game.
LT (End Edit)
@LT04:
One time I tried a Sealion by hording IPC’s as Germany. I bought the standard 5ish INF every turn then I overwhelmed the Baltic with transports.
UK was not able to handle that since they had put so much into a S Africa IC and a India IC. The US was two turns away from really being able to help as well.
After a few more rounds the US retook London as I felt Moscow was more important.
LT
(Edit) Again like stated above the Allies are not stupid but you can suprise them. They knew I was up to something so they were cautious but couldn’t figure out what.
Also I think it is worth mentioning that this was a KJF game.
LT (End Edit)
Well…if you see UK buy an IC in BOTH South Afr and in India…then there should be no doubt that you go for London.
UK will then lose either London or the Indian IC to Japan, which never hurts Japan…
Untrue. Building loads of trannies for Germany in case of double IC means monster soviets. USA only have to build enough reinforcements for UK one turn and then countinue increasing Pacific fleet. UK only need 15 ipcs to fill the Commonwealth ICs, and 12 can work some times, the rest can be spent on Home Guard. Anyway, a double IC strat always involve UK1 attack on z5, so G must build baltic fleet from zero.
Untrue. Building loads of trannies for Germany in case of double IC means monster soviets. USA only have to build enough reinforcements for UK one turn and then countinue increasing Pacific fleet. UK only need 15 ipcs to fill the Commonwealth ICs, and 12 can work some times, the rest can be spent on Home Guard. Anyway, a double IC strat always involve UK1 attack on z5, so G must build baltic fleet from zero.
In my humble opinion, I see an optional Russian monster as a monster that is easily tamed, or at least delayed.
The plan currently in discussion involves a transport buy on G2 or later, not on G1. This means that you still have some decent firepower to defend against the Russians, or at least delay them in their march to Berlin.
And Germany can strafe, hop the Baltic, change territories, create dead zones, or whatever, to keep the Red army occupied.
Plus. There is Japan. If UK spends only 15 IPC on the Commonwealths, that means only 3 INF in India (plus additional troops that were already there.) That’s a piece of cake for Japan to take.
If Japan also built the IC in FIC, then they can have 6 tanks roll up to Moscow every turn pretty damn fast, with some additional forces taking Africa, to reduce UK’s income even further. Have the rest of Japan take the Northern Route to Russia, and those commies will have their hands full on J4, maybe even J3 already.
Now, there’s still the USA offcourse. Pacific fleet is no worry for Japan. With it’s two Battleships, USA need to invest big to take it out. If they do, great, less forces for Europe. If they don’t and go Europe all the way, you can confuse him by landing some Japanese forces in Alaska.
Or, when you have indeed bought 5 trannies or something like that, but decide not to go for UK after all, you can delay any USA fleet. (Remember to lure the UK fleet closer to the coast first, so you can take it out with a combined Baltic fleet and the Luftwaffe)
Again, this has the biggest chance of succes against a somewhat inexperienced player. And there’s quite some if’s and but’s, and hence it’s not all that stupid to wait till G2. And that your cue should be the Indian IC.
If you then start to threaten the UK, you will have to make him choose between Londan and Bombay. Which means you are in control.
It’s no guaranteed succes, but it definitely makes for some variety and more fun then the worn out “Race to Russia from two sides asap” approach ;)
Btw. Has anyone ever considered, in stead of putting them in the Baltic, to put them in the Mediterranean?
Agreed, it’ll take you an extra turn to land on UK (not if you buy an IC on W-Eur btw, if you wanna get real funky :P ), but you have more routes to take (thus harder to block for UK), your ships are all out of range, and you have your big bad Battleship there. If you manage to get the remainders of your Baltic fleet to meet up with them aswell, nice.
And if you don’t decide to go for UK, you can always use those trannies to hop to Brazil, or to Southern Asia to meet up with Japan and have a combined attack on Moscow.
Options, options, options….and the Allied so little. And I think that is the strentgh of the Axis. They are a bit more flexible, and have a lot more options. If you can use that to push the Allies into the direction you want them too, you can have some serious fun and complicated games.
[/end rambling]
With 2 ICs (maybe even with only saf), RAF should attack Baltic sea and z59 trannie UK1, so, unless UK got crappy dice, UK has enough pieces to kill or at least lock new baltic fleet and to defend India. If z59 fails, 2nd IC goes to Australia. If baltic fails utterly you are in trouble, but you could solve it buying one or too subs for USA as fodder for Atlantic fleet.
For India:
Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Those are at least 17 units. Japan can send 20-22 for round 3, so just fill the gap with soviets arm or inf or even USA bomb. If done carefully or axis ignore the trannies (happen sometimes), you can attack Eind with 2 inf from aus and the bomb, killing 2 japanese inf and still reinforce india with another 2, 1 from nzel and the last from aus. India (and Sinkiang) can survive. With USA attacking Japan from east, Germany must take London or Moscow or USA will put a IC at Borneo soon or later (game over for Japan). With so many naval builds, Germany has no chance of beat soviets, and only a slim chance of beat UK (if they get uncare). With 2 UK ICs, the best germans can do is buy tons of land troops and try overrun soviets … as in real life.
This is my Sea Lion strategy, it works 75% of the time(the only times it failed was because I shouldn’t have launched Sea Lion):
1st build
Baltic Carrier, 1-2 fighters and whatever else you want, NO transports.
1st move: whatever you like, move all your air to EE, move everything out of Norway and WE, do NOT move German Meditteranean Navy to Gibraltar!
2nd build
(If UK can be attacked) Research Long-Range Aircraft, at least 6 dice.
2nd move
Attack UK (if feasible)!
This plan is much more flexible than a purchase of 5 trannies, If you clearly can’t launch Sea Lion, then the CV still defends the Baltic pretty well.
@EEB:
This is my Sea Lion strategy, it works 75% of the time(the only times it failed was because I shouldn’t have launched Sea Lion):
1st build
Baltic Carrier, 1-2 fighters and whatever else you want, NO transports.
1st move: whatever you like, move all your air to EE, move everything out of Norway and WE, do NOT move German Meditteranean Navy to Gibraltar!
[…]
This plan is much more flexible than a purchase of 5 trannies, If you clearly can’t launch Sea Lion, then the CV still defends the Baltic pretty well.
Yea, sounds more flexible than first-turn-attack!
But you may be very short on INF after spend 26 or 36 IPC at fleet in the first round.
And it will work only once, if ever. In that case you have described I would go to ALG with both UK and US and would buy one more TRA for UK and minimum five ground units to fill my trannies at next round.
Frood says something like you capture UK, but lost 4 FIG. Perhaps more if both UK and US bomber are at UK too. And US and UK both have troops to get UK back immediately. UK will lose one rounds of building units, and you can’t attack a second time, I think.
I don’t think you can win the war with these. You win a move against UK in europe, you lose a move against russia because of missing INF. That 30 bucks from UK can’t buy your four FIG back (but you will have long range air).
But it seems to be a funny variant. Perhaps I’ll try it out just to see the face of my oppenent. May be worth it. ;)
