@krieghund Your answer and the FAQ are super helpful – thank you!
Operation Sealion
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Germany needs air support in order to move fleet into England. LT04 has a very good idea and I would add fighters to increase air protection.
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I like having the FTR’s there for several reasons. They can still attack E Europe and return if they need to. They make the US player think twice before sending a weaker navy to assist the UK player.
Down fall is that they could start a Cuban Missile Crisis counter plan.
LT
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@LT04:
I have seen Germany start to play out the Geman Turtle buying mostly INF for the first 2 rounds stowing a little income away from those rounds then buying an overwhelming number of transports (5+).
In this method the Luft Waffe was put in W Europe again like you would in the German Turtle method. They assisted in the land invasion.
If I was going to go that route I would consider massing the med. fleet with the Baltic fleet first. If you are buying mostly INF it would be a wile before any one could get a foot hold any way.
LT
How would you protect these 5+ transports after build? I think against a competent allies player the german start fleet is no longer above water at turn three, foremost you move the baltic fleet out and try to merge with the med one.
The only chance to survive with the baltic fleet until turn three is a CV at first turn, I think. Then it may be possible to merge fleets at sz 7 and move back to baltic at turn three to protect those trannys, but then a combined uk/us fleet may stay at sz 6. You perhaps can sink these fleet, yes, but you can’t sink these fleet and land at uk at the same turn. That allied fleet will be rebuilt, and you can’t sink it twice.
The german fleet at baltic may live some time longer, yes, but with the med fleet moved toward england you should not get a feet on ground in africa. And that carrier at first turn and the heavy transport build will bring you to some INF shortage at the eastern front.In my opinion operation sealion can be done against an inattentive uk player only, and must be done quickly. After turn four the us pacific fleet can stand in the north sea, from this moment on at the latest a landing at uk is no longer possible.
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Sea Lion buying 5 trannies can only work against a uncared UK playing KJF.
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You are probably right. I was playing with a bunch of noobs. Just seeing a bunch of new ships was a big deterent to keep the allies from attacking.
LT
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The allies can easily counter this by keeping their forces in the UK. The only thing this can help with is keeping allied reinforcements out of Africa since they will need their navy to defend the UK, but Africa isn’t worth an entire turn worth of German IPCs.
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I wouldn’t think of Operation Sealion being your whole strategy. There’s no way to take UK for sure if the UK and US choose to defend it hard enough.
However, there are good ways to put pressure on UK and threaten this so as to damage your opponent… The following is an approach I posted on another site that I find effective:
First off, some general thoughts regarding naval builds on turn 1:
- Building an extra ship (like a destroyer) in the northern baltic fleet is not a bad idea, as it makes it much tougher for the uk to take it out on turn 1 or until they build up a mass of UK or US fighters
- I’m not a big fan of building a carrier. They cost more, and they require fighters to land on them, which reduces the number of fighters you can land on your own territories to keep them safe. It’s like having to defend an extra territory, in certain respects.
- Transport builds can be powerful, but since you have a limited number of targets, there’s not good reason to ever have too many in the baltic.
My preferred “SeaLion” opening moves & builds:
- Battleship + sub + transport + at least 4 planes take out gibalter battleship and land 1 infantry on gibralter. You want overwhelming force here.
- Build 4 tanks (to keep russia honest), and 1 destroyer and 1 transport in baltic (the fleet stays there).
- attack russia in an appropriately threatening manner (I like to transport and mass troops in karelia, for example.
- leave norway empty (if uk is silly he will take it, exposing his ships to attack).
- Mass all african troops in libya ready for next turn
- mass all fighters and the bomber in western europe with about 3 ground forces. send the rest to the front.
This is a costly move. You spend $20 and you don’t take egypt and you don’t kill the british fighter in egypt. However, you get lots in return too:
- you threaten england potentially with 3 transports and 1 battleship and 6-7 planes, so he has to react. They can block the southern fleet, but it then makes them leave ships out vulnerable to your planes. He can’t block the northern fleet except by sacrificing his fleet, so he has to build ground forces or risk US transports to land more in england.
- You make your baltic fleet totally invulnerable on turn 1. 6 ships is nothing to mess with, so while it cost you $20, you save all the money you might have lost when that fleet eventually got pounded in an unfair fight.
- Your over-the-top fleet battle at gibralter should kill the uk battleship without losing you your sub, so you save an $8 ship that way.
- your taking gibralter and building up in the baltic leaves the UK planes nothing to attack on turn 1, which is convenient.
- You threaten to be able to combine your fleets into 1 super fleet (9 ships will last a LONG time with air support and keep your coast safe) and to stop you they have to throw ships in your way to die. If this is ever possible, do it.
- You can now, with your strong navy, afford to leave fewer troops on your west coast and keep the opponents at bay much longer in the atlantic if you proceed carefully. This leaves you a free hand to beat on russia.
- You can threaten brazil with the southern navy, or return focus to africa just 1 turn delayed.
Of course, this leaves the UK able to move in to the mediterranean. But in most cases this is not a bad thing. The easier time japan has, the faster they’ll come to the rescue. And your atlantic navy should keep you safe for several turns which is all you really need. All for $20.
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Only 4 armors against soviets can lead to a Godzilla USSR. And you left so many guys free to fight for the east. I’d say:
Kill z59 trannie with z35 dd
all allied fleet to z8, ferry USA pals to England
ecan arm to eng
1 inf per to ind
arm, fig egy to ind
fig z35 to ind
(now you have 7 guys at India, enough to defend it)dd Chipre to z33
ac, tra z35 to z33 (yummy free trannie and dd)z40 tra fery inf nzel to aus
IC to India (If z59 tra manages survive, change this to saf)
5 guys to England(you can change some small things here and there)
Put IC at sin (if IC goes to ind), reinforce with soviet pals, fleet at z55 and give a world of pain to Japan
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Not a bad response. the 4 tanks against USSR weakness is offset by the fewer troops you need to leave at home in german lands to defend against atlantic attack for several turns.
The all allied fleet in Z8 can be hit by battleship, transpot, sub, and 6 german planes from western europe. Slightly expensive, but very favorable battle for germany (99% chance of win, average IPC loss of 27 vs 76). Then 6 baltic german ships can go wherever they want and on the allied moves there are not enough british or us planes to mount an effective turn 2 attack on them either.
So by making britain build 5 infantry (instead of fleet) and US move guys to england (or something similar) the operation sealion threat has some useful side effects.
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I didn’t notice those 6 figs on weu. Even a block with soviet sub is not enough then. Well, I guess then I would cancel the IC and build some fleet
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I think that the tatic is good to change the pace of the game and make the great britian player take notice. Otherwise you are playing directly into the allied hands.
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I have tried this several times. In some sort or another.
Against an unexperienced player, this WILL work. Germany doesnt have to worry about UK, Japan will have a field day with US and UK focusing fully on defending UK.
Against an experienced player…you are screwed.
Your fleet will die. That’s one certainty. It will die in round 3 or 4. US will make sure that happens.
After that, it will be an easy job for the Allies to take Germany. (Since you were moving everything you had to Russia, and wasted money on the fleet)So you need to be sure to have taken Russia or UK in G3, G4 max. Or else it will only have delayed Allied Victory.
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Woodstock,
I think you are half right. It will only play out like that with a week allied player. But I think if the Allied player was going for a KJF they may have enough assests tied up that Germany could pull it off.
LT
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As soon as you put ships in the Baltic, a smart allied player will just stack London immediately and prepare to back it with the US.
I don’t see how anyone gets ‘Sea Lioned’, except on the cheap shot Tech roll. Unless your opponent seriously drops the ball, or doesn’t know what they’re doing to begin with, its extremely difficult to take out the UK in the second round. Damn near impossible in the third. Its not the kind of thing you can really plan a strategy around, though if you’re discrete about your naval build up, you might be able to catch someone off guard once in a blue moon. The problem is, if you bid a transport in sz 5 and make a heavy transport build on G1, then the Allied player has to be a complete moron not to realize what he’s up against. If you play it smooth, you might be able to keep a carrier alive into the 3rd round, but then you’re playing a whole psych game with your opponent. Building ships as G is more of a rookie play, so you almost have to convince the other guy that you don’t really know what you’re doing, in order to slip the naval build by them. There’s a reason why the more experienced players focus on the Luftwaffe or Tanks though. Ships tie you down and have to be defended, and more often than not, you’re fighters just end up at the bottom of the sea along with any carriers you might have bought. Also, when Russia is indomitable on the Eastern Front, its much harder for the Japs to press the attack, which almost neutralizes the added pressure you’re placing on the UK.
I don’t know, I’m not going to say I’ve never seen it happen, but usually if someone manages to snatch London, its because of some oversight in the allied defenses that is exploited, more than any grand strategic planning by the German player.
Another possibility (and I don’t really recommend this, but I have seen it done) is to save your cash with Germany so that you can spend 80+ ipcs at once. A save-move will always draw suspicion from the Allied player, but it sometimes gives you a few more options than you’d have with a more prolonged build up. And if it doesn’t work out, you can always just drop a massive tank stack at the last minute, instead of committing to a navy. Again though, saving is not something I would usually recommend for the Axis, because the clock is always ticking.
:)
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@LT04:
Woodstock,
I think you are half right. It will only play out like that with a week allied player. But I think if the Allied player was going for a KJF they may have enough assests tied up that Germany could pull it off.
LT
Just like the guy above me, you’re buy will give away your plan.
And only a moronic Allied player would then engage on a KJF.If you see German ships duplicate in the Baltic on G1, that should be your cue to trample Germany from the Eastern front with Russia, supported by UK shipping untis to Karelia.
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One time I tried a Sealion by hording IPC’s as Germany. I bought the standard 5ish INF every turn then I overwhelmed the Baltic with transports.
UK was not able to handle that since they had put so much into a S Africa IC and a India IC. The US was two turns away from really being able to help as well.
After a few more rounds the US retook London as I felt Moscow was more important.
LT
(Edit) Again like stated above the Allies are not stupid but you can suprise them. They knew I was up to something so they were cautious but couldn’t figure out what.
Also I think it is worth mentioning that this was a KJF game.
LT (End Edit)
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@LT04:
One time I tried a Sealion by hording IPC’s as Germany. I bought the standard 5ish INF every turn then I overwhelmed the Baltic with transports.
UK was not able to handle that since they had put so much into a S Africa IC and a India IC. The US was two turns away from really being able to help as well.
After a few more rounds the US retook London as I felt Moscow was more important.
LT
(Edit) Again like stated above the Allies are not stupid but you can suprise them. They knew I was up to something so they were cautious but couldn’t figure out what.
Also I think it is worth mentioning that this was a KJF game.
LT (End Edit)
Well…if you see UK buy an IC in BOTH South Afr and in India…then there should be no doubt that you go for London.
UK will then lose either London or the Indian IC to Japan, which never hurts Japan… -
Untrue. Building loads of trannies for Germany in case of double IC means monster soviets. USA only have to build enough reinforcements for UK one turn and then countinue increasing Pacific fleet. UK only need 15 ipcs to fill the Commonwealth ICs, and 12 can work some times, the rest can be spent on Home Guard. Anyway, a double IC strat always involve UK1 attack on z5, so G must build baltic fleet from zero.
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Untrue. Building loads of trannies for Germany in case of double IC means monster soviets. USA only have to build enough reinforcements for UK one turn and then countinue increasing Pacific fleet. UK only need 15 ipcs to fill the Commonwealth ICs, and 12 can work some times, the rest can be spent on Home Guard. Anyway, a double IC strat always involve UK1 attack on z5, so G must build baltic fleet from zero.
In my humble opinion, I see an optional Russian monster as a monster that is easily tamed, or at least delayed.
The plan currently in discussion involves a transport buy on G2 or later, not on G1. This means that you still have some decent firepower to defend against the Russians, or at least delay them in their march to Berlin.
And Germany can strafe, hop the Baltic, change territories, create dead zones, or whatever, to keep the Red army occupied.Plus. There is Japan. If UK spends only 15 IPC on the Commonwealths, that means only 3 INF in India (plus additional troops that were already there.) That’s a piece of cake for Japan to take.
If Japan also built the IC in FIC, then they can have 6 tanks roll up to Moscow every turn pretty damn fast, with some additional forces taking Africa, to reduce UK’s income even further. Have the rest of Japan take the Northern Route to Russia, and those commies will have their hands full on J4, maybe even J3 already.Now, there’s still the USA offcourse. Pacific fleet is no worry for Japan. With it’s two Battleships, USA need to invest big to take it out. If they do, great, less forces for Europe. If they don’t and go Europe all the way, you can confuse him by landing some Japanese forces in Alaska.
Or, when you have indeed bought 5 trannies or something like that, but decide not to go for UK after all, you can delay any USA fleet. (Remember to lure the UK fleet closer to the coast first, so you can take it out with a combined Baltic fleet and the Luftwaffe)Again, this has the biggest chance of succes against a somewhat inexperienced player. And there’s quite some if’s and but’s, and hence it’s not all that stupid to wait till G2. And that your cue should be the Indian IC.
If you then start to threaten the UK, you will have to make him choose between Londan and Bombay. Which means you are in control.
It’s no guaranteed succes, but it definitely makes for some variety and more fun then the worn out “Race to Russia from two sides asap” approach ;)Btw. Has anyone ever considered, in stead of putting them in the Baltic, to put them in the Mediterranean?
Agreed, it’ll take you an extra turn to land on UK (not if you buy an IC on W-Eur btw, if you wanna get real funky :P ), but you have more routes to take (thus harder to block for UK), your ships are all out of range, and you have your big bad Battleship there. If you manage to get the remainders of your Baltic fleet to meet up with them aswell, nice.And if you don’t decide to go for UK, you can always use those trannies to hop to Brazil, or to Southern Asia to meet up with Japan and have a combined attack on Moscow.
Options, options, options….and the Allied so little. And I think that is the strentgh of the Axis. They are a bit more flexible, and have a lot more options. If you can use that to push the Allies into the direction you want them too, you can have some serious fun and complicated games.
[/end rambling]
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With 2 ICs (maybe even with only saf), RAF should attack Baltic sea and z59 trannie UK1, so, unless UK got crappy dice, UK has enough pieces to kill or at least lock new baltic fleet and to defend India. If z59 fails, 2nd IC goes to Australia. If baltic fails utterly you are in trouble, but you could solve it buying one or too subs for USA as fodder for Atlantic fleet.
For India:
Round 1
- 5 inf (ind, tra, per)
- Fig z35
- 1 soviet armor or fighter, your choice
Round 2
- 3 built units
- bomber from england
- USA’s fig from Haw
Round 3
- 3 built units
- 0 to 2 surviving figs from england (maybe they don’t appear if needed against baltic)
- 2 inf from aus
Those are at least 17 units. Japan can send 20-22 for round 3, so just fill the gap with soviets arm or inf or even USA bomb. If done carefully or axis ignore the trannies (happen sometimes), you can attack Eind with 2 inf from aus and the bomb, killing 2 japanese inf and still reinforce india with another 2, 1 from nzel and the last from aus. India (and Sinkiang) can survive. With USA attacking Japan from east, Germany must take London or Moscow or USA will put a IC at Borneo soon or later (game over for Japan). With so many naval builds, Germany has no chance of beat soviets, and only a slim chance of beat UK (if they get uncare). With 2 UK ICs, the best germans can do is buy tons of land troops and try overrun soviets … as in real life.
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