Submarine and transport combo. (no ampheb assualt)

[schostoppa]

Heres the scenario.

Allies have a US sub and an AUS transport in the phillipines in sea zone 35. and a US destroyer in sea zone 36.

Japan has a fleet of mixed ships in Sea zone 20 with the sea port in kwangtung.

The Japan player is wanting to get to the south pacific isles his next turn. sea zone 36 is blocked with a speedbump US destroyer. No question.

If sea zone 35 only had the US sub there then anything but a Japan destroyer could move over the sub ignoring combat. Any inclusion of a destroyers turns the sub into a speedbump. If the AUS transport was by itself any and all ships could ignore it and move past. But since the transport is no longer the ONLY enemy ship in the sea zone because it is accompanied by the sub it can not be ignored there because both ships become a speed bump.

Correct?

If not what in the rules am i missing?

[barney]

Hi shotstappa

Subs don’t block anything unless it’s an unescorted transport doing an amphib attack. And only blocks the trprt when they are in the SZ they are attacking from, otherwise they can cruise on by on their way to the amphib attack SZ.

In a reverse situation the DD would block the sub but no other ships would.

I’m sure someone will explain it better than I

[schostoppa]

The thing that im hung up on is that in order for the “Doesnt block enemy movement” rule to trigger, the condition of only transports or only subs respectively.  If either instance triggered it then the rule should state both transports and subs in the rule like “off shore bombardment” rule for battleships and cruisers. it states both units use the rule simultaniously and not exlusively.

[barney]

I’d have to read up on it. Panther will probably chime in and explain it. : )

[Panther]

@schostoppa:

If sea zone 35 only had the US sub there then anything but a Japan destroyer could move over the sub ignoring combat. Any inclusion of a destroyers turns the sub into a speedbump. If the AUS transport was by itself any and all ships could ignore it and move past. But since the transport is no longer the ONLY enemy ship in the sea zone because it is accompanied by the sub it can not be ignored there because both ships become a speed bump.

Correct?

If not what in the rules am i missing?

The relevant rule here is that enemy submarines and transports don’t make a seazone hostile.
As well a submarine as a transport never block any movement (provided the attacker does not decide to engage them).
Moving subs are blocked by enemy destroyers, never vice versa.

The combination of a sub and a transport still does not make that seazone hostile.

@rulebook:

…
Most units must stop when they enter a hostile space.
…
Enemy submarines and/or transports don’t block any of your units’ movement…

@barney:

Subs don’t block anything unless it’s an unescorted transport doing an amphib attack. And only blocks the trprt when they are in the SZ they are attacking from, otherwise they can cruise on by on their way to the amphib attack SZ.
…

Just to clarify: The “unescorted transport rule” does not prohibit the transport’s movement during combat move phase, but “only” unloading during Conduct Combat Phase.

[Panther]

Welcome to the forum, schostoppa  :-)

[weddingsinger]

Does Japan’s movement through the SZ mean they can’t do that AND sink the transport since that would count as combat?

[Panther]

@weddingsinger:

Does Japan’s movement through the SZ mean they can’t do that AND sink the transport since that would count as combat?

There is no way to sink a ship without combat.
If Japan chooses to attack the transport Japan must attack the submarine, too.
At least one Japanese ship with an attack value needs to stop and engage those enemy ships in order to sink them.
The other Japanese ships may continue their move.

@rulebook:

Enemy submarines and/or transports don’t block any of your units’ movement, nor do they prevent loading or offloading in that sea
zone (with one exception; see “Special Combat Movement: Transports,” page 15). As the moving player, you have the option of
attacking any enemy submarines and/or transports that share a sea zone with you. However, if you choose to make such an attack with
a unit, that unit must end its movement in that sea zone, and it must attack all such units present. In other words, you must either attack
all enemy submarines and transports in the sea zone, or you must ignore all of them. You may not attack some enemy units and ignore
others in the same sea zone. It is possible that some of your units stop to attack while others continue moving through the sea zone.

So in order to move every Japanese ship through that seazone, Japan must ignore the enemy transport as well as the enemy submarine.

[Matt89]

To clarify-

If the US wants to land 2 infantry in the Phillipines with only a transport and the Japanese only have a sub in the sea zone, I cannot land? right?

You used ‘unescorted’ as the operative word.  An unescorted transport cannot amphibious assault a sea zone with an enemy sub.
What if I use a destroyer as an escort… do I need to attack the sub to land? Can I just land without sea combat?  What if the sub destroys my destroyer, can I still land?

Please help!

[Panther]

@Matt89:

To clarify-

If the US wants to land 2 infantry in the Phillipines with only a transport and the Japanese only have a sub in the sea zone, I cannot land? right?

You used ‘unescorted’ as the operative word.  An unescorted transport cannot amphibious assault a sea zone with an enemy sub.
What if I use a destroyer as an escort… do I need to attack the sub to land? Can I just land without sea combat?  What if the sub destroys my destroyer, can I still land?

Please help!

This is what the rulebook says:

@rulebook:

However, a transport is not
allowed to offload land units for an amphibious assault in a sea zone containing 1 or more ignored enemy submarines unless at
least 1 warship belonging to the attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end of the Combat Move phase.

So that means that if the attacker chooses to avoid sea combat by ignoring the enemy submarine, the attacker may unload if at
least 1 warship belonging to the attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end of the Combat Move phase.

In case the attacker brings a destroyer he may of course still choose to ignore the enemy submarine avoiding a sea combat and unload.

If in a sea combat the defending submarine survives and destroys the attacking destroyer the transport may not unload, because the attacker failed to clear the seazone from enemy units. The attacker would most likely retreat his transport, then.

HTH :-)

[Panther]

@ShadowHAwk:

@P@nther:

If in a sea combat the defending submarine survives and destroys the attacking destroyer the transport may not unload, because the attacker failed to clear the seazone from enemy units. The attacker would most likely retreat his transport, then.

HTH :-)

Actualy if there was a sea combat it would continue untill there is only 1 side left in the combat.

You cannot ignore the sub halfway through the combat, you either ignore it or you dont. So in your example the transport MUST retreat or be sunk and therefore can never be near the intended landing zone. Unless the sub player submerges but why would anyone ever do that.

Sure, I did not say anything else. This situation is not a situation about ignoring submarines, after the first round of combat is over and the attacking destroyer has been destroyed. I talked about retreating, not about ignoring, then.

This situation is a situation where the attacker decides to retreat or not, following the retreat rules.
Most likely the attacker (transport) would retreat, for the reason you described.