Different Rules for IPC.

[Jennifer]

I’d actually come to the conclusion that the best way to go would be that a nation collects income for the land they own at the start of their turn (less any economic damage incurred between their last mobilization phase and their new collection phase).

This means that no one could collect for the same land in any game turn that someone else already collected for it.  This would result in less IPC in the banks of the nations then total land value, which would make sense given that war torn areas do not produce as well as peaceful areas!

So yes.  Germany may get Egypt on Round 1, but if England liberates it, Germany never gets to collect for it. (Neither does England if Germany takes it back on Round 2.)

[Imperious Leader]

oh you mean like AARHE?

[Jennifer]

@Imperious:

oh you mean like AARHE?

Rule book for AARHE is so long I have yet to find time to read it through.

[Imperious Leader]

yes but its got the same exact idea!

Read like one page at a time whenever time permits will give you alot of substantive ideas.

Its long but the ideas are written in very easy format, so you don’t really need to reread the same point over again.

Your ideas are in it among others. You helped make it what it is.

Tekkyy is working on Triple A programming for it.

[Nuclear]

@Cmdr:

I’d actually come to the conclusion that the best way to go would be that a nation collects income for the land they own at the start of their turn (less any economic damage incurred between their last mobilization phase and their new collection phase).

This means that no one could collect for the same land in any game turn that someone else already collected for it.  This would result in less IPC in the banks of the nations then total land value, which would make sense given that war torn areas do not produce as well as peaceful areas!

So yes.  Germany may get Egypt on Round 1, but if England liberates it, Germany never gets to collect for it. (Neither does England if Germany takes it back on Round 2.)

That does not elimate the problem of someone being able to just stack up units.  Resources should not be unlimited in that since.  For example, a player who can have at most 10 tanks, due to the areas he or she controls, would make that person manage their resources more.

[Jennifer]

Stacks will be smaller if nations cannot each collect for the same territories

And I’ll look into it over the holidays.  Sooner if TripleA runs it.

[tekkyy]

Collecting income at start of turn is not directly about stacking.
But it is directly about finite resource.
All this extra income injected into the game.

Sorry AARHE’s TripleA project is abandoned due to reasons internal to TripleA. Support for any house rules in TripleA will also be a problem.

[Imperious Leader]

:cry:

[templeton]

@Nuclear:

Each unit requires 1 IPC maintance at the start of a player’s turn.

I’m experimenting with something similar… logistics;

To conduct attacks you need supply tokens - and luckily the Bulge game made plenty! I’m also looking at what penatlies come from not having supply in defence - perhaps tanks defend at ‘2’ - and planes need to expend 1 supply per area that they interecept from, otherwise no defensive support.

Still playing with cost - 1IPC per supply, or 1IPC per five supply?

Should it be one supply per area - or one supply per 5 units?

Or what about supply is only needed to make artillery give infantry the ‘2’ attack rating, or allows planes to make tanks attack a ‘4’ on the one to one basis mentioned in the Blitzkrieg NA.

Or will they just slow the game down… I sort of wanted to make building up supply tokens part of preparing for a large offensive, and move away from everyone attacking with every area each turn - so that you get some forced concentration of aim - it’s too expensive to attack everywhere and see what opportunities open up.

Still toying with this, and will demo it over Christmas with some friends… we just want to use the trucks and supply tokens and have the problems associated with the historical problems of not being able sustain both Patton’s and Monty’s advance!

Supplies can be drawn from adjacent areas, can be moved on trucks or ships counting as one land unit… necessary for amphibious assaults, naval interception, defensive air support - conducting strategic bombing raid.

I’m open to suggestions… (or slap downs! :wink:)

[Jennifer]

I could see lack of supply effecting tanks and planes.  Planes would defend like bombers if no supplies are available and tanks like infantry.  Perhaps figure supplies out like this:

Land value of territories you own with industrial complexes = number of units you can supply (infantry need no supplies, they can rape, murder and pillage as they see fit to supply themselves!)

For every battle you win, where an enemy mechanized unit is destroyed (includes mechanized infantry) you get one extra supply unit.  No penalty for losing such engagements.

[templeton]

@Cmdr:

infantry need no supplies

I was thinking that they can’t attack - and that they defend on a ‘1’ without supplies…

The Allies ran out of steam as they couldn’t attack fast enough to keep up with the Germans - or perhaps they can attack, but supporting artillery don’t work and tanks don’t work. Should help the Japanese stay in the game.

Or perhaps prohibit Allied troops from attacking without supplies - I’m still looking into this, thanks for the ideas!

[Nuclear]

Infantry still need supplies.  It is called Jeeps, Trucks, food, clothing, and such.  The soldiers just did not march accross the land.  They had vechicals to move.

[Jennifer]

Mechanized infantry would need supplies to use their two territory move ability.  Normal infantry remain normal.  They can get food from plundering cities, they can get ammunition from plundering enemies, etc.  Even their jeeps and 2.5 ton trucks could be fueled by plunder, they just wouldn’t be moving as fast.

[templeton]

@Nuclear:

Infantry still need supplies.  It is called Jeeps, Trucks, food, clothing, and such.  The soldiers just did not march accross the land.  They had vechicals to move.

I know this! I did some time in the Army, and we were not happy when we didn’t have supplies!

But, at the grand strategic level we can assume that buying an infantry unit includes the ongoing cost of combat supplies etc - without having to make the game too complicated, or introduce upkeep for units.

Infantry are hard to deal with as they already attack at ‘1’ - so the only real penalty is to prohibit them from attacking. In defence it gets harder to do - the Germans fought a very tenacious defence without huge amounts of supply, as did the Japanese - so to reduce unsupplied infantry from a ‘2’ to a ‘1’ in defence may be over-stating the case.

I fully agree that a modern army needs supplies - and the supply tokens from BOB need to find their way into the main game.

However, there comes a point where trying to add more and more complexity into Axis and Allies, we might as well play a different World War 2 game which already has this level of complexity…?

But you make an excellent point - and that is that supply should be used and incorporated into this game. But how to do it without throwing the balance?

[Imperious Leader]

you should throw away this supply idea in its current form and allocate instead costs associated to combat. Its the offensive of the army that drains national resources to a large degree, and NOT just moving around.

Assign headquarters (representing theaters of war for each nation)

For example Germany has

Army Group North
Army Group Center
Army Group South
OKW
Panzer Army Africa ( Africa Korps)

each HQ can be loaded for up to four combats depending on its level…example: OKW can initiate 4 combat situations, while Army Group A can do only 2.

you give each nation some free (automatic) attacks that they assign these HQ, then the rest has to be paid for.

Use the Bulge Tokens to represent stockpiles that can be bombed…

use the trucks as mechanized/motorized-- infantry/Grenadiers

activation of HQ costs 2, each combat round costs 1…something like this.

then you will see periods of intense attacks and periods of quiet.

In fact you can assign a -1 to activation costs in summer, and +1 to activation in winter.

there you go right off the top of my head.

[Nuclear]

I am using this rule.  Makes sense to me, and is easy to follow:

No player may produce more units than his or her total IPC collection plus ten infantry.  For example, if a player collects 40 IPCs, that player may not have more than 40 units and 10 infantry on the map.  If a player ends up having more units than what he or she collects in IPCs then the player is restricted from building new units during that turn.  In addition, the player is restricted from building new units until the total unit count is below the IPC count plus the ten infantry.

[Imperious Leader]

I hope you count IPC just before movement. or people will take and trade back and forth all sorts of territories, just to get a boost of pieces, then they will “hurl” at opponents like rocks, knowing the next turn they need to “kill” off units just to be able to spend income for new units. This will make for lots of extra frivolous attacks for non historical/realistic  reasons.

additionally its arbitrary to assign a IPC PLUS 10 thing… where does the 10 thing come from?

it does help solve the piece density issues, but allied IPC totals and imbalance means that they have a greater overall lead against the allies:

before the axis had less money but more quality pieces and more of them

now the allies have IPC control and can limit the axis armies with this control

I am not fond of this idea at all.

[tekkyy]

Note that Germany starts with 48 units excluding AA and IC.
Sure Russia would kill off some on R1 but its still quite close to the limit you proposed of income+10.

Upkeep is a realistic thing though.
So why do we have a strange situation here?
Maybe somthing else is not right. Upkeep “cost” is too high?
Could try 1 IPC for every 4 units, rounded down

Talk of stacking, maybe you should only pay upkeep when the number of units in a territory exceed its income.
10 units in Germany…(10-10) / 4 = 0 IPC
10 units in Eastern Europe…(10-3) / 4 = 1 IPC
10 units in West Russia…(10-2) / 4 = 2 IPC

[Crazy Ivan]

8-)
I really like your idea IL on how to handle combat orders with headquarter units allocating resources to the front. But I am not certain that the best way is to have free points for each HQ, above one that is. I think, that it will help keep down unit buys somewhat, if command points should have to be purchased just like units, etc…
  Example:
    Let’s say that Army Group North wants to attack Karilia with 8 units. during the buy phase, AGN would have to buy X number of command points to put their troops into the attack mode. For the sake of my example, it costs 1 point for every 4 units that are to be moved. So, AGN has to buy 2 IPC to “get er done”.
Sure, it adds a little complexity to the game, but I think that we here are willing to go that little extra step to get a better game. :wink:
  Also, the -1 /+1 due to weather is brillent! But when is it winter? Every odd numbered turn maybe?
And the truck tokens for moving infantry and artillery is cool too. How much do you think they should cost? 2 points each?
Oh well, that is my 2c worth, hope someone else likes it.
    :-)

[Imperious Leader]

Also, the -1 /+1 due to weather is brilliant! But when is it winter? Every odd numbered turn maybe?

+++++++++ every third or forth turn. The first time should be a surprise for the Germans…(determined by the Soviet player on either turn 1,2 or 3)… i suggest its up to the soviet player to start the first poor weather within turns 1-4 and pick the worst turn to introduce it to the German player (after he has selected his attacks)

And the truck tokens for moving infantry and artillery is cool too. How much do you think they should cost? 2 points each?
Oh well, that is my 2c worth, hope someone else likes it.

+++++ the two types of tokens fuel and ammo represent movement and combat allocations.

each HQ has a radius of two territories and can perform (command really) up to 4 actions including up to a maximum of 3 attacks. each allocation is paid for in either ammo or fuel depending on the action. The HQ is reduced by one level for each action it ‘orders’ these units in range.

Fuel costs 1
Ammo cost 2

each nation ‘gets’ a certain number of allocations of these chits each turn freely and extra must be paid for.
Defender does not pay, only attacker pays and all types of units either moving or attacking in groups pays.

you can increase costs during the winter +1 to demonstrate logistical problems in winter
You can add specific territories on the map to act as resource points that  ‘give’ free or take away the free fuel or ammo each player gets…

this will introduce strategy like hitting Caucasus to force the Soviets to deny them the free fuel and ammo each turn.

Use AARHE as a template for localities on where these “fuel” points are located.