what Hobbes is saying is 100% true. But, where tanks become a real problem for the allies is on Persia. Stack 8+ there and use German force to open Kazhak. Even if the Allies know to look for it, the mere threat of it is often enough for them to give up the Caucausus complex.
Another look at the SAF IC
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That could work, Axis, if you move that fleet to take India, Australia, New Zealand and Madagascar for Germany.
Darth likes to do that with Germany anyway, I love to get away with it as well!
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I played a multi player game not very long ago, (somewhat decent players) where G took a big part of Afr, Madagascar, Australia,
N.Z., and Hawaii !! Don’t think they made it to Alaska… :lol:
Germany didn’t win the game though :-) -
Trying this out in an AARe game right now. I’ll report back my findings.
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@Cmdr:
Trying this out in an AARe game right now. I’ll report back my findings.
Can you link the thread, i’d like to take a look.
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@Emperor:
@Cmdr:
Trying this out in an AARe game right now. I’ll report back my findings.
Can you link the thread, i’d like to take a look.
AAMC Game 17841
Dunno if you can look at them if you are not participating in them though. :(
Anyway, this may work really well in AARe or AAR with National Advantages because it’s Colonial Garrison, not a purchased Industrial Complex.
And, just as a side note, I think National Advantages are designed to make KJF the easiest method. Almost all of the Allied National Advantages in LHTR 1.3 and 2.0 seem geared toward making Japan’s life a living hell.
Non-Aggression Treaty (duh)
Russian Railway (speedy assaults on Japanese forces in the east)
Colonial Garrison (Indian IC with immediate addition of infantry, 2 armor on UK 1)
Radar (duh, 2 or less in India, that isn’t falling soon!)
Fast Carriers (Think SZ 61 is safe? Think again!)
Marines (naval attacks at 2 or less with infantry only are cheap and effective)
Chinese Divisions (duh)
Mideast Oil (Move England’s fighters, bomber to India fast)
Enigma Decoded (Save a fighter and armor to defend in India)
Mobile Industry (Move an IC to Novo, now you are building right on top of Japan)
Russian Winter (Coupled with Non-Aggression can force Japan to not attack for a round)
Joint Strike (Good for Naval hitting of Japanese fleet by both American and British fleets)
Island Bases (Again, duh, the Pacific is where most of the islands are anyway!)Granted, a lot of those can be used effectively against Germany as well, but KGF is pretty standard online, and these just make KJF almost irresistible.
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Only problem is if Germany gets U-boats, you can forget about KJF.
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Yes, I find the Reinforced Carrier a boon to a KJF strategy.
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@Bean:
Only problem is if Germany gets U-boats, you can forget about KJF.
U-Boots are nice, but keep in mind that it takes 4 rounds to recoup the cost of U-Boot purchases and they have no defense against aircraft.
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I haven’t even considered a SAF IC since my days of FTF A&A. Long time ago…
I only ever do KGF, but I agree that SAFIC has a place there, too. Counterattacking on UK1 with 3inf 1bmb doesn’t really maximize those inf and likely leads to a dead bmb on G2. But if you rally the inf and get the Aus inf there, too, SAF can pump out straight tanks that will destroy any German forces. Surviving inf/arm can then go to Persia or beyond.
But I think where this strat really shines (in addition to giving the Allies a way to defend against Japan in the late game) is: The UK doesn’t have to land in Alg on UK1 to quickly control Africa. The UK2-4 counters will take care of that.
Instead, the UK can make a very important landing in Nor and/or gear up for a UK2 Arc (or maybe Kar) landing. I find that if the UK isn’t establishing a beachhead early on, Germany can just work the northern corridor (Nor/Kar/Arc) and eat up 4trns of UK troops without losing many troops in return.
It looks like SAFIC gives the Allies some quick but long-term strength where they are probably the weakest, and allows the UK to focus on Europe from UK1.
It’s wonderful to once again have a potentially viable (no, India doesn’t count) IC option.
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I can hardly remember that I have seen SA IC in revised. But surely sometime must have tried it.
I have no reason to believe that this is a good strat.
I know for sure that I would be surprised as axis if at the end of UK1, suddenly an IC popped up in SA :-P
I would not know how do handle it, or even if SA IC is something to handle, does this threaten me :? :?Who has tried this, and how did it work out?
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Working on trying it now, Lucifer. Hold on. We had a rule issue to deal with and just got it ironed out. So we’re just now finishing Round 2.
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I can hardly remember that I have seen SA IC in revised. But surely sometime must have tried it.
I have no reason to believe that this is a good strat.
I know for sure that I would be surprised as axis if at the end of UK1, suddenly an IC popped up in SA :-P
I would not know how do handle it, or even if SA IC is something to handle, does this threaten me :? :?Who has tried this, and how did it work out?
For the record, the SA IC strategy went 0-2 in the 2vs2 Tournament Semifinals. The Axis won both games.
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Yes, they did. As a matter of fact, the one I participated in failed rather spectacularly. However, I’m almost positive that it can be viable if implemented properly and only under certain circumstances which is reason for the thread. And it’s actually refreshing to rehash old dead strategies with a new twist.
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For the record, the SA IC strategy went 0-2 in the 2vs2 Tournament Semifinals. The Axis won both games.
Not entirelly true.
I did put one in in “my” game in 2vs2 tourney. It did fall, but we won the game, I built it to Lure Japan into africa and ease the pressure on Russia.
Al thought i hoped it would last 1 more round then it did :(
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@Nix:
For the record, the SA IC strategy went 0-2 in the 2vs2 Tournament Semifinals. The Axis won both games.
Not entirelly true.
I did put one in in “my” game in 2vs2 tourney. It did fall, but we won the game, I built it to Lure Japan into africa and ease the pressure on Russia.
Al thought i hoped it would last 1 more round then it did :(
I stand corrected, Nix, you did win the game, but definitely NOT because of the South African IC. At least, not in the way you intended . . .
Yes, they did. As a matter of fact, the one I participated in failed rather spectacularly. However, I’m almost positive that it can be viable if implemented properly and only under certain circumstances which is reason for the thread. And it’s actually refreshing to rehash old dead strategies with a new twist.
U-505, you’ve definitely given me food for thought. I don’t go KJF that often, but if I were to, it would definitely be nice to be able to contest Africa with Britain alone without having to strand the British navy in sz12. It’s still tricky, though, and you’re right - Uk must play the first turn very defensively. And actually killing the Med. fleet would also help IMMENSELY with a KJF – any KJF, for that matter.
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I’ve taken to landing the entire RAF in W. Russia if I can on Round 1. From there I can hit the Med fleet with 3 fighters, bomber on UK 2. That’s plenty to kill the transport and probably enough to kill the battleship too. (Yes the BB is worthless without a transport, now what German player cannot afford a solitary transport on round 3?)
Assuming, of course, I didn’t lose the fighters in SZ 5 (assuming, of course, I attacked it.)
Only problem is it almost forces me to buy submarines on UK 1. Still, 3 submarines, 2 infantry is decent.
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Bear in mind that 2 things have to happen for (a South African Industrial Complex) to have any appeal to me.
At the end of G1, Germany’s Med fleet has to be in sz15 after supporting an Egypt landing instead of sz13 and the Baltic fleet is not reinforced. If either of those 2 conditions are not met, it would probably fail or at least be a bit harder to implement. Also keep in mind that it has an added twist in that I am perceiving it as being a KJF manouver to insulate the IC from a combined Axis assault.
And do you also assume an Axis bid of 7 for infantry and artillery in Libya, leaving possible 1 inf 1 art 2 tanks in Anglo-Egypt at end of G1? Because that can make rather a difference.
1. Build 1 IC SAF, 5 inf UK.
2. Strafe the Baltic fleet with with the UK aircraft stopping only after losing 1 fighter and then landing the fig in WR and the bomber in Persia.
There’s only a 1/18 chance of the Germans knocking out 2 UK air units in the same round, but that is considerable enough that you should take it into account.
3. Do NOT hit Egypt with the India units. Move the whole Indian Ocean(hereafter known as IO) fleet to sz33, landing 2 inf in Kenya plus moving the inf from SAF up, as well as adding the IO fighter.
Short version - the optimal short-term UK counter to a J1 invasion of India is 2 infantry at Persia. However, with the Japanese transport at Kwangtung and the alive and well, the Japanese can respond with four ground units plus bomber and fighter to India on J2. UK cannot afford to recapture India again, as by J3 the Japanese navy will be back in range.
4. Attack the Japanese SS in sz45 with the UK SS in sz40. Do whatever you want with the sz40 TP but I thought it would be best to try to move it unloaded or with 1 inf from NZe east toward Africa just to spread out the Japanese a little more if they want to hit it.
5. Land 2 units into Algeria with the intent to reinforce with the sz10 US supporting fleet+ground landing and the E US fighter going to UK for a 1 turn defense to return to the Pacific on the next turn once the UK is safe from invasion and a UK CV is built(or not) on UK2 to cover the UK Atlantic BB/TP’s.
Building a carrier at London is slow business. Are you planning on building ground units only at South Africa?
6. Retreat the remaining inf+AA from India and T-J to Persia possibly supported by Russia if you are concerned with a German armor+air blitz there which I wouldn’t really be worried about but you might be, depending on who you’re playing. I’m not mentioning any names (Nix).
The way it should look is:
3 inf, 1 fig Kenya. Germany likely wouldn’t risk a 1 bmb, 2 arm attack there on G2 which is the maximum Germany can bring short of a 3rd bid armor placed in Libya.
1 bmb, 3 inf, 1 AA Persia. Now, the UK not only has 2 units available from the IC every turn but also has 2 rounds of landings with the sz33 TP to unload in Kenya for added early defense or possibly into IEA or even Egypt from sz34 to slow Germany down until the IC is self sufficient.
2 inf or 1 inf+ 1 art/arm in Algeria plus US forces. The 3rd African front to help harass Germany’s African units from all sides (Alg, Per, Ken).
If the German fleet moves to sz16 to attack Europe or sz15 to unload another couple units into Egypt or T-J it will be threatened by the bomber in Persia, and 1 fig each from WR and Kenya, both of which can land either on the CV from sz33 moved to sz34 if the Med fleet is in sz15 or Caucasus if the Med fleet is in sz16. Even moving the Med fleet to sz13 or sz14 would offer no protection as it will come under threat from the UK fleet in sz12 supported by the Persian bomber as well as the US sz12 fleet. At that point, it wouldn’t really bother me to trade the UK Atlantic navy for the German Med fleet anyway, because in a KJF, Africa is always a big Cha-ching for Germany and the UK BB is likely to survive to take a German fighter with it in a counterattack so it would be more than worth it to probably secure Africa for good. And once that happened, the IC wouldn’t be wasted as the UK would be able to drive armor up into Asia or Europe or add units to the IO fleet and begin harassing Japan from the opposite side of the Pacific as the US.
Alternately, you can forego the Baltic attack if Germany builds a CV there or even if you just don’t want to risk your aircraft and move both UK fighters to WR and instead keep the IO fighter on the CV in sz33 and not move the SAF inf to Kenya. That would give you the option of bringing a 3rd fighter to sz15 or sz16 which can land in Persia or Caucasus or using it to counterattack Kenya with the SAF inf+2 transported Persian inf if Germany blitzed Egyptian armor there.
Even if you do have to move the UK fleet (1 CV, 1 DD, 1 or 2 fig +/- 1 TP) from sz33 to sz34 to land the fighters on UK2, it could be formidable enough to keep the Japanese from attacking it on J2 as they might not have enough units to safely attack it without losses they probably can’t afford as well as drawing a portion of their fleet at least 1 turn away from the Pacific where they would be badly needed to to fend off the oncoming US.
I think with a little tweaking, that this opening could even be used with a KGF strategy as well. Again, with a priority placed on defense of the IC and destruction of the Med fleet, you could let the UK fight for at least the Southern half of their African IPC’s while the US prepares to make their landings through Norway instead of the Algeria landings and the slow crawl through north Africa. As long as Russia can at least keep trading Persia with Japan, the Japanese fleet wouldn’t be able to land in Kenya right next to the IC without having to spend extra money to set up a rotating transport system from India. And the remaining UK funds could be used to buy TP’s and ground units for Norway, with the TP’s covered by the US fleet, or to buy strictly air units for added defense of the IC if need be.
1. You leave the Jap Kwangtung transport alive. Japan will exploit that.
2. You spend 15 IPC on an industrial complex and abandon India to the Japanese. This allows the Japanese and the Germans to make a push on Caucasus. Controlling the interior of the Mediterranean is not feasible for the Allies early, considering that the Axis can simply buy a carrier in the Med to effectively stop almost any Allied aggression.
That is, you accelerate Japan’s progress in the east, sink IPCs into an industrial complex and a carrier, and split UK’s forces between London and South Africa. Japan can claim India, and should the German attack stall, Japan can attack South Africa; if successful (probable), the Axis will probably retain control of Africa as well as Asia for a long-term economic win for the Axis. Remember that Japan has two battleships to use for battleship bombardment; I don’t see how UK can withstand that plus Japan’s air force plus transported units.
I don’t say a South African IC is unfeasible. However, I wouldn’t say it is necessarily a strong option for the Allies in most games either.
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i dissagree gamer, nix placing the ic in saf is what beat us, even though it did eventually fall, japan was way to slow in getting to russia which is what nix and randmacts intended
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NPB,
I did take the bid into account. I even assumed a 1 arm bid to Lib possibly giving Germany 3 armor in Egypt on G1. That’s why I suggested landing India units into Kenya giving the UK 3 inf, 1 fig there. Even if Germany did attack Kenya with 3 arm, 1 bmb the average result is the bomber being the only surviving unit and that means the IC is safe from German attack since the the closest German units afterward would be the inf or art surviving from the G1 Egypt attack which wouldn’t reach the IC until G4, giving the UK 2 full turns of building for defense.
I also took into account the fact that the UK can lose 2 aircraft in an attack on the Baltic fleet. The Baltic fleet strafe isn’t neccesary. If the prospect of losing the 2 fighters in the first round puts you off then you don’t have to do it because sinking the Med fleet on UK2 is by far the bigger priority.
The reason I don’t worry about the Japanese is because I envision this as a KJF strategy. With the IO fleet(1 CV, 1 DD, 1 or 2 fig, 1 TP) as a blocking force in sz33 it would take the Japanese until J3 at the earliest to mount even a token attack on the IC. It would also require at least 1 BB, 1 CV, 2+fig, 2 TP and maybe even the bomber to do it and even then they are likely to take a decent amount of casualties(they would have to lose aircraft to preserve the TP’s) with the remnant not getting back to the Pacific until J5. Against a KJF, I don’t think Japan is capable of diverting half of their capital ships for 5 turns to capture the IC without giving the US an immediate opening to advance into the Pacific.
Also, buiding a UK CV was just a noted possibility in case the UK wanted to land units into Europe after the Baltic fleet was nullified. Other options are to land units into Algeria with just their starting Atlantic fleet covered by the US DD, 2 TP or even use the UK to strictly build aircraft for use as a defensive measure for the IC or Russia. Everything is situational depending on the board layout so the CV build isn’t neccesarily the best option at all.
As far as India goes, Japan usually has control of India by J2 anyway, so I don’t see it as bad to give it to them early for the prospect of adding UK units to help challenge Africa.
I agree that it puts Russia in a spot having to defend without any early help from the other Allies, but in a KJF, Germany makes around $50 with uncontested control of Africa so I see it as a good thing to fight for the African IPC’s because it helps keep the UK income up and I’d rather Russia have to face Germany making only half or less of the income from Africa and forcing them to divert units to holding those IPC’s rather than just allowing them to control Africa for next to nothing.
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This might be a bit crazy, but I’ll throw it out there anyways……
How about landing those UK ftrs in french west africa?what is germany going to do… take 2 tanks and a bomber on them?
You could put three UK ftrs there (from the sz 35 a/c).
If the US lands in Algeria… the German africa korps will have lots to do besides take such a risky battle.
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