Does anyone else feel that the whole Air War could be improved?

[Ben_D]

Can anyone else confirm?

[baron Münchhausen]

IDK, for my part I was able to get this file.

[Rank Carcass]

Wow! You have definitely focused on this a lot more than myself. I could see this working. However its a total redo of all existing air war. Maybe too much change,  need to redo the entire rulebook to make this work. Changes scramble airbases etc.

I like most of it, but its an entirely different game mechanics. Essentially a new game on the same map. Have you changed anything else? Like kingkubba’s new rule set. Or is it just the air that you changed?

[Ben_D]

Hey Rank, these rules are part of Jinx’s mods that he uploaded.  We’ve made sure to address all other things that these rules affect, to the best of our abilities.  We just didn’t like the vanilla mechanics, which is what drove us to do this.

[Rank Carcass]

@Ben_D:

Hey Rank, these rules are part of Jinx’s mods that he uploaded.  We’ve made sure to address all other things that these rules affect, to the best of our abilities.  We just didn’t like the vanilla mechanics, which is what drove us to do this.

Exactly why we went to 1936 from oob global.
We have been tweaking the rules and mechanics too. But this is really interesting. Its like a new version of the game. I had seen some of jinx’s previous posts like the national sheets. Realy like the way you’re group is going with this. Keep it up! I’m inspired to continue our mods. So far not as ambitious as you’re group though. Id be interested to see the whole package and borrow or share some ideas. Most of ours are already posted here but I can send our modified sheets etc. They are still works of progress though every game leads to more "why don’t we? "

[baron Münchhausen]

@Rank:

The 1 round fighter air superiority is excellent. We tried it for more rounds once and only once, it was very expensive. And every one only bought fighters. If you change that you need to make air cheaper to buy. Possibly lower attack/defense value also. Or there will be fighters on CAP every where, making them cheaper or same cost as destroyers with more movement. This would eliminate most naval builds in our group by Cost vs ability. We consider this a game breaking change and decided to never try it again! All units would need a cost change resulting in an entirely different game.
Currently the cost and values of all aircraft work very well. If you change one thing other things are affected in a chain reaction to maintain balance of purchase and prevent Over-Powered units.

Or simply do as tac bomber already is and give fighters target select @ 1-3 on air units and eliminate the air superiority round completely. This one appeals to me most with its simplicity.

I agree with this diagnosis.
My main trials on Fgs imply cost change.
I came to something near 1914 aicraft: 6 or 7 PUs and attack 2 defense 2. D12: A4 D4

And TcB changes to 7 or 8 PUs attack 3 defense 2. D12 : A6 D4

In these case, there was no split on dice results.
All Fgs hit were first applied on enemy’s aircraft, when available.
All TcBs hit allows to pick ground target of your choice, usually Tank.

To keep full Carrier off/def ratio, I have to make it 3 planes carrier and increase defense factor from Defense 2 to 3, (D12 : D5 or 6).

I played with both OOB warships cost and lower cost structure (SS 5, DD 6, CA 9, CV 12, BB 15).
The difference is that in OOB cost structure, Subs 6 PUs and 7 PUs Fighters were chosen as fodder while at reduced cost 6 PUs Destroyer and Fg were chosen.
Also, OOB cost makes costly capital warships were the last standing units in Naval combat: Carrier and Battleship. I found that this battle with Fgs and planes shot down first and Capital Warships remaining more fitting than usual Fg and BB last standing units.

Every combat round dogfight bring a greater realism feel. And at 6 or 7 PUs it is not very different from Antitank guns taking out Tank at 6 PUs or AAA shooting down planes.

I also have to improve AAA to make it defend each combat round for lower cost, otherwise Fgs make AAA totally obsolete; bringing mobility, versatility and are good for both offense and defense.

Also, allowing dogfight makes for rules which create such opportunity in ground battles, not just mostly naval.
It was allowed to land up to 2 Fgs or TcBs in a just conquered TT.
So, instead of keeping Fgs away from border defense and keeping attacker using planes against only ground units stack, it becomes more popular to bring forward AAA and to put 1 or 2 Fgs to shot down attacking unescorted TcBs. All this make for an interesting cat and mouse between Fgs vs TcBs vs Tanks and AAAs.

These are the major changes you can forsee.
Clearly brings a feel of WWII double battlefields tactical situation (in SZ there is air and sea battle, in TT air and land battle).

With opening round dogfight, it brings a glimpse of it for less trouble and modifications.
I hope it will be possible to develop both types of air combat within Triple A G40 Redesign project.
Don’t hesitate to share lessons learned about this opening round dogfight, this will help balance things out.

Tell me how you deal with increased air attrition (cost change?, value changes? Etc.) and StBs or TcBs vs Fgs in dogfight. And how it can improve strategic making decision and depth of game.

Baron

[baron Münchhausen]

@Ben_D:

Hey guys.  I haven’t posted anything significant in a long while.  It reminds me that I’ve been on this forum since 2012.  I figured I’d post this to show that I still read this forum and that I’m still actively part of the A&A community to a certain degree.  I digress.

Anyway, Jinx and I, along with another person who’s usual screen name is The Tyrant (not meaning another person who might have that same name on this forum) are part of the same group that Jinx refers to from time to time.  I’ll speak on behalf of our group and mention that we’re just not satisfied with the current way aircraft units operate.  Their mechanics, operations and purpose simply do not reflect what they were in reality.  This leads to wonky game mechanics and several house rules in many different forum threads that simply band-aid the rules.  We’ve decided to overhaul the whole thing.  These rules are not for the light-hearted.  I will note though that it seems easier in practice than in writing, like most things you learn to do in life.  These aircraft mechanics are part of the mod that Jinx posted in another thread, but in the most amount of detail that I could put them in.  Jinx did pretty much all the leg work for drafting up those mod documents (sorry man, we’ll make it up to you haha), but we contributed several ideas and refinements and continue to do so.  This project of ours is still very much a work in progress.

In this post, I’ll upload the Word document that I made.  I’ll post it here with no colour coding, but I think it’ll be harder to interpret and read.  I’m open to suggestions and questions for clarification.  Constructive criticism and suggestions for change are welcome too.  I hope to see some feedback.

Hi Ben D,
I supposed we are fellow Canadian.

I’m just wondering if you ever think about making Strategic Bomber air roll similar to AAA defense instead of regular unit rolls
I means that we can think that Fgs and TcBs are actively chasing each others whether in air or on landing ground or Carriers, hence each rolling one per unit.

But StBs were for air to ground carpet bombing. Suppose a Dark sky Strategy of 6 StBs attacking a ground stack with only 1 Fg.
The odds are clearly this Fg unit will be shot down. But, if StBs air attack is like AAA, this would imply only 1 roll against defending Fg interceptor. Does this make more sense to you?

1 Fg cannot be surrounded by all StBs, hence 1 Fg unit is in reality actively fighting 1 StB unit while letting others passing by.

Of course, you can say that StBs have 2 or 3 rolls (like AAA) for defense when there is more Fg than StBs.
For instance, 2 StBs vs 6 Fgs, this would meant that each Fg get a chance to be shotdown.

In that configuration, I visualize StBs as flying in dense formations to create an umbrella of machine guns fire all around them. At the maximum ratio of 3 Fgs flying around 1 StB to shot it down.

More realistic? More functional for game balance?
Tell me what you think.

[Imperious Leader]

No changing of costs or values,

Air units fight each other at reduced values

Fighter:2
Fighter-bomber: 1
Strategic Bomber:1
Jet Fighter: 3

They fire each round concurrent with each land combat round, when all fighters from one side retreat or are destroyed, the planes fire at normal values. Note defender cannot retreat planes.

Also , no land units can hit air units, but in combat you need at least one land unit, to use air units in land combat.

Naval Combat with air units from both sides is handled OOB

[Ben_D]

Baron, thanks for the post.  In terms of demographics, we seem to be the secound largest group of A&A players, after the Americans.  Pretty cool I think :)

Sub-sections 3.1.3 & 3.1.4 under section 3.1 (Air Combat Round) address the issue of the fighters being overwhelmed.  We decided to make things work that way because of re-occurring Air Combat Rounds.

However, for section 3.1 (Strategic Bombing Combat Rounds), you have a very valid point.  I like it.  I’ll see what the consensus is.

Something tells me that I’m going to have to better distinguish those two points…  I think 3.1a and 3.1b will have to do.

Edit: Got it done.

[baron Münchhausen]

As far as I can understand this air combat round,
only Fighters are rolling in this dogfight phase.

Bombers don’t roll to hit, unless taken as casualty.
Otherwise,  all rolls are directed at ground or naval target.

Interesting indeed.

The bomber taken as casualty roll a special anti-air roll is an interesting feature to figure one tactical aspect on air battle.
In single opening combat round mechanic, it makes sense.
But, since there is multiple combat rounds with aircraft, it stays simpler that even shot down bombers keeps an ordinary rolls against ground targets. It can be seen as bombers were being shot down after delivering their payloads. On the next round, this bomber can no more deal damage.

Usually, SBR preceeds other kind of combats.
Fighters have to commit on interception or dogfight in Air combat round, not both, right?

Another point, which strike me: you get the opportunity with D12 system to make AAA fire more consistent with actual historical values by making it 1 /12 but instead, it is higher than OOB G40 @1/6?

I would accept that a given aircraft flying throw a TT on its way to combat zone have to submit to AAA fire in addition to any AAA in combat zone. But when you add up both, it is a wall of fire2*@3 or 4 = 6/12 or 8/12  that aircraft must pass before being able to attack.

In such a high attrition game, you can make AAA cheaper with a lower defense too.
This will keep the realistic feel without compromising any air support strategy.

[baron Münchhausen]

I read that AAA in combat TT get a preemptive roll, then on second combat round get regular roll vs planes.
You already have a very complex rules with many variations according to target and  unit which roll.
Why not consider that all AAA roll in embattled TT is regular, no preemptive, simpler?

The preemptive fire is already coming from interceptors and AAA in TTs flied over by attacker before reaching destination because attacking planes cannot retaliate and if shot down, will not make attack roll at all.

[Ben_D]

@Rank:

Exactly why we went to 1936 from oob global.
We have been tweaking the rules and mechanics too. But this is really interesting. Its like a new version of the game. I had seen some of jinx’s previous posts like the national sheets. Realy like the way you’re group is going with this. Keep it up! I’m inspired to continue our mods. So far not as ambitious as you’re group though. Id be interested to see the whole package and borrow or share some ideas. Most of ours are already posted here but I can send our modified sheets etc. They are still works of progress though every game leads to more "why don’t we? "

I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to see all of your group’s work put in a document attached to a thread.  Interpreting information is hard to do when it’s not centralized, as I’m learning.  I’m thinking I didn’t make it easy for people here on the thread myself.

---

@Baron:

Fighters have to commit on interception or dogfight in Air combat round, not both, right?

Right, not both, only one or the other.

@Baron:

Another point, which strike me: you get the opportunity with D12 system to make AAA fire more consistent with actual historical values by making it 1 /12 but instead, it is higher than OOB G40 @1/6?

I would accept that a given aircraft flying through a TT on its way to combat zone have to submit to AAA fire in addition to any AAA in combat zone. But when you add up both, it is a wall of fire2*@3 or 4 = 6/12 or 8/12  that aircraft must pass before being able to attack.

In such a high attrition game, you can make AAA cheaper with a lower defense too.
This will keep the realistic feel without compromising any air support strategy.

@Baron:

I read that AAA in combat TT get a preemptive roll, then on second combat round get regular roll vs planes.
You already have a very complex rules with many variations according to target and  unit which roll.
Why not consider that all AAA roll in embattled TT is regular, no preemptive, simpler?

The preemptive fire is already coming from interceptors and AAA in TTs flied over by attacker before reaching destination because attacking planes cannot retaliate and if shot down, will not make attack roll at all.

Hmm, we figured 1D12@3 and 3D12@3 for pre-emptive shots were more along the lines of what the effectiveness was for AAA.  Maybe you’re correct man, I won’t pretend to know more than I do.  We haven’t run into any gameplay issues yet with AAA costing 4 I.P.C.s / I.P.P.s. with pre-emptive shooting abilities.  That might be another tweak that could be done.

Remember that interceptors do not have pre-emptive shots.  Escorts and bombers do get to shoot back.

From what I understand so far, you would give bombers the ability to shoot back at fighters in the same fashion as AAA, except not pre-emptively.  3D12@2, with only one dice assigned to one fighter.  You would also remove the pre-emptive shooting ability from AAA.

Sounds reasonable.

[baron Münchhausen]

Your system is very detailed and complex.
I’m just trying to streamline some features so it will be easier to apply and remember rules, while keeping accurate tactical combat interactions.

For this reason, bombers in SBR and Reg combat should only make roll against ground units.
I would not use AA defense for StBs in reg combat, in SBR this can be different, AAA-like ability vs Fg, is alternate option.

On historical AA fire, I read on this forum it was 10% odds of casualty. But there was no source.
I learned that the worse and unique case of all Allied bombing raid over Europe was 30% of a given flight group.
This included interceptors.

With air combat features all over the place, I would rather apply a @1 on D12.
However, making it preemptive each combat would work at this reduced rate.
The idea is KISS, whether all or nothing. Assuming that CMove toward the embattled TT provides opportunity for AAA (and Fg stationed) along the way to shot down aircraft preemptively, it would be simpler for all AAA to work same way.
Also, at such low defense @1/12, I would allow AAA to roll vs up to 3 planes for 3 IPCs. It would be cheaper and plenty AAA but not OP.

And preemptive is a nice way to depict tactical situation for aircraft having to pass through AAA barrage before being able to dogfight.

[baron Münchhausen]

1.1.2 Defending Combat Air Patrol fighters in sea zones may intercept at 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology.  Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3
once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units.  Casualties are removed immediately and
combat ceases after one round.

1.1.2 Defending fighters on airbases and/or aircraft carriers (both with the RADAR technology) may scramble to intercept and roll 1D12@3 once each or @4 once each with Jet
Technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all attacking bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus
defending aircraft units.  Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one interception round.

Sorry,
I don’t see what you mean by scrambling, and what the difference compared to Air Patrol?
An adjacent Air Base can scramble?
If there is no Air Base along the TT passed through, there is only AAA which can fire?

It is not clear…