Thats a really good idea, but it would be much more profitable to fight germany instead of the allies. The only thing the USSR woud get would be parts of the mideast, as Germany would already dominate europe.
Once the USSR is active, they can invade any neutral though.
Before you go saying that my scenario is “a farce,” make sure you play the game a few times to get a feel for it. A lot of things may seem bad on the surface, but actually work out in practice. Please don’t judge a book by its cover, in other words.
That said, I am considering adding in a variable that somehow allows the SU to get involved in the war later on, although certainly cunning soviet troop maneuvers can get the SU into the war easily enough as it is (and so I’m not quite sure what you all are complaining about).
Just test the scenario for yourselves before you go off calling “a farce” and whatnot.
If one thinks a game is broken then discuss a game breaking strategy.
Play against the game maker if need be.
For one thing, what is going on in tekkyy’s game is just plain bad allied gameplay, not bad rules insofar as I can see. for one thing, there is no reason that one should not find a russian bomber in any area that the germans intend on attacking.
I will be happy to play against anyone in order to justify the board’s rules as soon as I can get my hands on the A&A Europe board. It is currently at a friend’s house and needs to be recovered before I can play a game over forums.
Other than that, all I can say is that all is conjecture at this moment, because the potential problems you all have raised were not addressed in my initial round of playtesting, and niether have any of you conducted enough of your own playtesting (IMHO) to discover whether these percieved problems are in fact a reality. If you are truly interested in making this scenario better rather than just sniping at it for spite’s sake, please play about three games as each side AT LEAST before you make any initial judgement calls.
Even if I don’t get to play against one of you online, I assure you all your concerns have led me to request another round of playtesting with my friends, especially revolving around the idea of a permanently peaceful Soviet Union.
As a final note of historical conjecture on my part, I would argue that Stalin had no serious plans whatsoever to attack Germany. His officer corps decimated, his industry still growing, and his outdated equipment and training all left him in a severely inferior position relative to the German Wermacht at the start of the war. There are reports that Stalin was actually quite confident in the cease-fire agreement held by his country with Nazi Germany. In any event, I can see Stalin going to war only as soon as he felt that the Soviet Union was truly prepared. I would guess war no earlier than 1944, and even that would have required some very silly decisions to be made.
Disagree. Plans released by the Russian archives show that Hitler only just beat Stalin to the draw in June’42.
Moreover, the entire deployment of the USSR was to fight an attacking war. That’s why their forces were so badly outmanouvered in the early battles; they had no defence in depth so were constantly encircled and destroyed. Their aircraft wee deployed near front lines and therefore sitting ducks for the Luftwaffe. Any A&A player will tell you not to base fighters on the front line.
they had no defence in depth
They had no elasticity for defense. Stalin said " we cant just give up our cities" and basically made terrible decisions. After a few mistakes he quickly began to listen to his Generals and allowed them to make most of these decisions, while Hitler did the opposite as time went on which explains the Whermacht success at start and letter failure because of shifting objectives.
I am tired of complaining about shortchanging US production to those whose sole interest is making sure that the Axis have a reasonsble chance of winning in order to appease the “Gods of Game Balance”. Having had relatives vanish into the maws of the death camps, and having put a lot of time into studying exactly how beastial the Japanese were in WW2, I could not care less about game balance. I will no longer trouble you with any additional comments. I trust that you will enjoy your fantasies, and glory in the victories of the Axis.
What I find weird about the '39 scenerio is the Allies(UK,US) can’t go to Russian territories(xenophobia) but the Russians can go on their territores. Wouldn’t it be both ways instead of this try to get troops or ships and planes into territories that the Axis will attack. It makes for weird gameplay and is open to many loopholes. Why can’t the SU just declare war when they please because putting troops in others countries to defend is basically doing so. I admit in the game I am playing for the first part of the game I did not think of putting Russian ships or planes that would have gotten them into the war earlier. I have been doing everything possible to get Russia into the war. I have troops in every area now that the Axis has not conquered and building ships to try to blockade the Axis and force them to attack SU.
What I find weird about the '39 scenerio is the Allies(UK,US) can’t go to Russian territories(xenophobia) but the Russians can go on their territores. Wouldn’t it be both ways instead of this try to get troops or ships and planes into territories that the Axis will attack. It makes for weird gameplay and is open to many loopholes. Why can’t the SU just declare war when they please because putting troops in others countries to defend is basically doing so. I admit in the game I am playing for the first part of the game I did not think of putting Russian ships or planes that would have gotten them into the war earlier. I have been doing everything possible to get Russia into the war. I have troops in every area now that the Axis has not conquered and building ships to try to blockade the Axis and force them to attack SU.
I’ll blockade you before you blockade meee!! :-P
The Russians didn’t allow other Allied troops or planes into their teritorie even when they were at war.
But did the Allies allow Russians in America or UK? Not really.
Now you do have a point there.
They probly didn’t want to go into the US or UK, the Soviets never did trust the Western Democracies. They even thought twice about joining in an alliance at first.
Exactly, if you want some arbitary rule that the SU can never attack until the Axis attacks you need to keep the xenophobia mutual.
The UK would never allow russian troops in London except maybe as a last resort against a German Invasion that might be succesful. This event would be very unlikely anyway. Then if the Russians did put there troops there it would like be an act of war anyway.
For one thing, what is going on in tekkyy’s game is just plain bad allied gameplay, not bad rules insofar as I can see. for one thing, there is no reason that one should not find a russian bomber in any area that the germans intend on attacking.
Is this regarding my idea of letting Russia play as a third side?
Well, of course the downside to having the USSR dump men and material in other countries in this game is the SAME reason Stalin never considered for a moment during the real war - it would be taking away communist troops from the defense of the motherland to defend a non-communist state. Such an action would not only have been against the communist doctrine of the time, but also against the common-sense idea of prioritizing your own safety over the safety of your neighbors. If Germany wants to discourage the USSR from engaging in this strategy, it need only park a sizeable army on the Russian frontier.
And let me put it to you this way - Britain felt that she needed aid badly during the Blitz and the U-boat blockade. I have little doubt that if Stalin had offered military aid in the form of weapons and/or vehicles, or even an expeditionary unit, Britain would not have declined the offer. The USA was essentially already providing the UK with the same, and simultaneously remaining at peace with Germany (despite the fact that her merchant marine was more or less openly at war with U-boats on the high seas at the time!). I can’t say as much for the USA, but I’m not willing to complicate the rules just for the sake of this small discrepancy. If the USA needs to worry about being invaded, then the histories have already gone so far from the beaten path that I’m willing to accept such a possibility.
If in gameplay this proves to be too much of a boon to the allies, I will strongly consider a xenophobia clause for Russia as well. This would not, note, stop her from going on naval maneuvers.
Eschaton did you get Cyan’s ? about the scenerio?
In response to your playtesting and more of our own, we have decided to release a drastically different rule set, version 3, in order to address some issues brought up. Many things have been tweaked, changed, or added, so be sure to read the whole document before playing with this new rule set:
Axis & Allies Europe: 1939
VICTORY CONDITIONS: Control two enemy capitals (capitals are comprised of Moscow, Germany, Northern Italy, United Kingdom and United States) for one turn.
There are 5 playing nations: Soviet Union, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom (and minor allied and neutral countries), France/United States. Italy is played using Japanese pieces from one of the other game boards, and France/United States uses United States pieces.
Turn Order: Germany, Soviet Union, Italy, the United Kingdom, and France/United States.
SPECIAL RULES:
Additional IPCs on Turn 1: Germany starts with 15 IPCs to spend on its first turn.
Italy starts with an extra 6 IPCs to spend on its first turn.
UK and France start with an extra 10 IPCs to spend between the two of them.
NEW UNITS MAY ONLY BE PLACED IN THEIR PLAYER’S INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX OR ADJACENT SEA SQUARE. THIS NEGATES THE PACT OF STEEL RULE.
Soviet Union:
The Soviet Union must remain at peace until Germany or Italy initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union. Then it must declare war against both of these countries and no others.
Soviet convoy does not become active until Germany or Italy attacks the USSR.
The Soviet Union may only use half of their income, rounding up, until Italy or Germany initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union owns the pink territories and they are considered part of Soviet Territory.
Captured Soviet factories can only produce a number of units equal to that territories’ IPC value each turn.
France/United States:
U.S. convoys become active when the USA enters the war (i.e. France falls).
Maginot Line: French infantry in Eastern France or Vichy France defend on a 3 if attacked from Germany or Northern Italy, respectively.
The two British Convoys valued at 3 IPCs are French; if France falls they become British. If they have been occupied by Axis naval units, they will still need to be reoccupied by Allied powers.
Mid-East:
The total IPC value of the yellow Mid-East territories is counted to the end of each round. This money is divided between the French and British immediately for use on their next turn (in a fashion similar to British convoys in A&A Pacific).
The Industrial Complex in Egypt may only deploy 1 unit per turn.
Vichy France:
If France falls to the Axis, French IPCs are claimed by the conquering player and any French land or air units in Vichy France, the Middle East, or North Africa immediately become German (they may not move until the following turn). Any remaining French land or air units in Allied territories become British. French naval units are scuttled (removed from play). The French convoys become British (if under Axis control at the time, they must be liberated first). From this point forward the French player is now the United States; nothing special happens if France is liberated.
Plunder:
If the Axis conquer any of the minor allied powers (including Netherlands-Belgium and Corsica) or neutral territories (all of which are originally under the jurisdiction of the British player), that Axis country immediately gains “plunder” from the bank equal to twice the IPC value of the territory conquered to spend on their following turn (territories with no IPC value yield a plunder of 1). This only works the first time a territory of this nature is conquered.
Pact of Steel:
Axis powers can deploy units using each other’s Industrial Complexes.
Lend-Lease:
Allied units in Red territories can be absorbed by the Soviet Union during the Soviet’s purchase phase.
Other Rules:
Strategic Bombing raids can only destroy up to the IPC value of the territory in which they are conducting the raid.
Fighters cost 10, Carriers 16. Tanks defend on a 3.
Transports can carry any of the following combinations: 2 infantry, 1 infantry and 1 tank, 1 infantry and 1 artillery, 1 infantry, 1 artillery, or 1 tank.
Destroyers can bombard.
The United States gets an industrial complex. No new ones can be built.
Allied units may not enter Soviet territory until the Axis initiates hostilities against the Soviets.
If France falls, all Mid-East IPCs go to the UK by default. They may not be given to the United States.
The British marker is used on the side of the IPC chart to keep track of Mid-East territories.
UNIT PLACEMENT
GERMANY: 13 IPCs
Germany: 6 infantry, 4 tanks, 2 artillery, 4 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Austria: 2 infantry, 1 tank, 2 artillery.
Czechoslovakia: 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter.
Hungary: 3 infantry, 1 tank, 2 artillery.
Finland: 2 infantry.
Baltic Sea: 1 battleship, 1 destroyer.
Danish Sea: 1 transport, 1 sub.
Denmark Strait: 2 subs.
Barents Sea: 2 subs.
Mid-Atlantic: 2 subs.
South Atlantic: 2 subs.
SOVIET UNION: 18 IPCs
Moscow: 1 infantry, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Leningrad: 1 infantry, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Stalingrad: 1 infantry, 1 Industrial Complex.
Archangel: 1 infantry, 1 Industrial Complex.
Baltic States: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
East Poland: 1 infantry, 1 tank.
(Bessarabia, Vyborg, Caucasus unoccupied).
Siberia: 1 infantry.
Turkestan: 1 infantry.
Ukraine SSR: 1 infantry.
Belorussia: 1 infantry.
Russia: 1 infantry.
Karelia: 1 infantry.
White Sea: 1 transport, 1 sub.
ITALY: 9 IPCs
Northern Italy: 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Southern Italy: 2 infantry, 1 tank.
Libya: 2 infantry.
Sicily: 1 fighter.
Rumania: 2 infantry, 1 artillery.
Bulgaria: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
Central Mediterranean: 1 sub, 1 battleship.
Tyrrhenian Sea: 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
(Sardinia unoccupied).
UNITED KINGDOM: 19 IPCs
United Kingdom: 2 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Canada: 1 tank, 1 Industrial Complex.
Malta: 1 fighter.
Atlantic: 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
Celtic Sea: 1 transport.
English Channel: 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
North Sea: 1 sub.
Davis Straight: 1 transport.
Straight of Gibraltar: 1 battleship.
Eastern Mediterranean: 1 destroyer, 2 transports.
(Gibraltar and Iceland unoccupied; 2 convoys worth 5 IPCs).
Mid-East: (see special rules for Mid-East income).
Egypt: 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 Industrial Complex* (see special rules)
Trans-Jordan: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
(Syria, Iran, and Palestine unoccupied)
Neutral and Minor Allies: (do not contribute to UK income)
Yugoslavia: 2 infantry.
Greece: 3 infantry, 1 artillery.
Crete: 1 infantry.
Denmark: 1 infantry.
Norway: 1 infantry.
FRANCE: 17 IPCs
France: 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex.
Eastern France: 1 Tank, 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 AA gun.
Vichy France: 2 infantry.
Tunisia: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
Morocco: 1 infantry.
Algeria: 1 infantry.
Syria: 1 infantry.
English Channel: 1 destroyer, 1 sub.
Western Mediterranean: 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
(Corsica, Netherlands-Belgium are unoccupied; 2 convoys worth 3 IPCs).
thats pretty good. except id allow German rockets and jet planes tech after the late war, and also give Germans about 4-6 SS Panzerkorps which can be allocated (built) at the rate of only one per turn after a specific turn (attack at 5 defend at 4-5, cost 8). Perhaps the Soviets can also have 6 shock armies (same values) getting 2 in late 41, 2 in spring 42, and 2 more in fall 1942.
also soviet Siberian army rules like this:
Siberian Army:
Historically, the Russian position in the fall of 1941 was critical. German forces were approaching Moscow, encircling Leningrad, and generally overrunning and destroying all remaining European Soviet military power. The Russians however had an ace up their sleeve in the form of their Asian armies. These tough Siberian units had been held in Asia to guard against any aggressive moves by the Japanese. However, Russian intelligence confirmed that the Japanese had made the decision to attack the US and avoid conflict with Russia. This allowed Russia to transfer these formidable forces west. These units arrived in the Moscow area just as the German forces were appearing on the outskirts of Moscow. These forces, along with the Russian winter, finally stopped the Nazi advance.
At the beginning of the third Russian turn, the Russian player rolls a die. The result determines the size and composition of the Siberian reinforcements.
Die Roll: Siberian Reinforcements:
1 8 x inf, 4 x tank, 4 x arty, 1 x fighter
2 8 x inf, 3 x tank, 4 x arty
3 7 x inf, 3 x tank, 3 x arty
4 7 x inf, 3 x arty
5 6 x inf, 2 x arty
6 6 x inf
The resulting reinforcements are immediately placed in Moscow. If Moscow has been captured, the reinforcements are placed in any original Russian territory still under Russian control.
Thats a pretty big force. (Siberian army NA)
It does not show up until late 1941, so when you got the piece density at that level, i think the impact would just be enough to help the soviets stay afloat for 1-2 more turns or turn the tide just a bit.
