Hypothetical German 1 Move

[Romulus]

It could be my fault but in my games going too early on the attack against Russia do not pay.
I think that I will conquer Leningrad and Caucasus. Then massing my army in Ukraine instead than in EE, trying to trade Caucasus Every turn.
Another possibility may be strafing West Russia and then retreating in Ukraine and mass the army there.

British fleet had to be sunk prior that Germany may move against Russia.

[Jennifer]

I havn’t voted because I honestly don’t know what’s best.

On the one hand you have pros:

Russia reduced to only what they had built on Russia 1 plus their eastern forces.
Russia cannot attack your Eastern European territories (Karelia, Norway, E. Europe, Belorussia, Ukraine, Balkans)

On the other you have cons:

England has 2 Battleships
You’ve probably lost 2 fighters to AA Gun fire (safe assumption) but maybe none, maybe more.  It’s a risk.
You’ve lost all your forward units and will need at least a full turn to get more up to the front from Norway, maybe two or three turns to get from Germany/S. Europe to the front.

Am I missing any?

[Hobbes]

Take out Russia

WRus: 5 inf, 1 art, 3 arm, 6 fig, 1 bmr (lose a fighter if you have to take WRus)
SZ13: 1 BB, 1 sub, 1 trn (to land 1 inf on gibraltar)
Karelia 3 inf, 1 arm (from G)

Non Combat:

• Move 1 inf 1 art from Algeria to Libya
• Land all fighters on Ukr/Balkans/SE (depending on their unused moves)
• 2 inf (EE) + 2 inf (Balkans) + 2 armor (G and SE) to Ukr
• 1 sub to SZ3 (to prevent UK from landing on Kar)
• 2 inf from WEur/G to Kar
• 2 arm from WEur to EE
• WEur AA Gun to G
• SE Inf + Art to Balkans
• 1 DD + 1 SUB to SZ7

Russia will be limited to taking back Cauc + WRus.
UK can move the Indian fleet to the Med but risks it being attacked by G (1 trn,1 sub,1 BB,ftrs,bmr vs 1 AC, 2 ftrs, 2 des, 1 trn)
Egypt is threatened (3 inf, 2 art, 1 arm + whatever comes on the transport/BB if it’s still alive)

The risk is in the SZ13 attack (losing more than a sub) and on the AA rolls on WRus.

[axis_roll]

@Jennifer:

Here’s the situation.  It is Germany 1.  Russia has stacked W. Russia with 8 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 3 Armor and an AA Gun.  Caucasus is empty save for the AA Gun and IC.  Germany has an Infantry and Artillery unit bid to Libya.

Now, as you know, Germany CAN hit W. Russia HARD.  Germany has:

Fighter, Bomber from Germany
Fighter from Norway
Fighter, Armor from E. Europe
Fighter, Armor from Balkans
3 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter from Ukraine
3 Infantry from Belorussia
Fighter from W. Europe

That’s a large force with a lot of punch, and you won’t need all those fighters to accomplish your mission.  In any event, barring really crazy dice, you’ll win with at least a tank left if you save 1 of those infnatry for Caucasus and save a fighter for Karelia (assuming Russia leaves 1 infantry there as a blitz blocker)

So which is it, leave the British fleet alone or destroy Russia’s war making potential?

what’s in moscow (besides perhaps 2 ftrs)?

[Flashman]

If you go for the attack then make sure the Japanese make optimum moves to join you in central Russia ASAP, even if it means ignoring the US fleet, China and Siberia.  It then becomes a race to eliminate Russia before the Allies can do much about it.

[Jennifer]

@axis_roll:

what’s in moscow (besides perhaps 2 ftrs)?

Russia’s builds.  24 IPC of whatever.  Probably 9 Infantry, 3 Armor, 2 Fighters and an AA Gun.

Purchases are probably 3 Infantry, 3 Armor

NCMs:

2 Fighters to Russia
2 Infantry form Evenki to Russia
2 Infantry from Kazakh to Russia
2 Infantry from Novosibirsk to Russia

However, 4 of those Infantry may be in Sinkiang too. I like putting them there, makes Japan slow down.

[Guest]

Ignore Russia (sort of).

• Grab the $4 free in Caucuses, you lose 1 INF doing so, have a 1 in 3 of killing a Russian on the way out, and prevent a build in Caucuses.
• Take Karelia

But you do NOT ignore the UK fleet.  That extra BB is deadly if allowed to live. You also MUST close the Suez, otherwise you have TWO very strong UK fleets to deal with, and the US can just build TRNs with no need for capital ships and be landing a dozen units a turn in just 3 rounds, on top of the UK landings.

But the main thing is, once you wipe out West Russia, THEN WHAT?  You are spent as Germany.  You have no more forward units, no ARM, and probably lost some airforce as well.  What will you use to follow up your attack on Russia?  Not much, you have nothing left in range, and will need at least 2 turns just to get ARM there without an INF screen.  By that time, Russia can build 15+ INF in addition to Allied aircraft, so Germany is NOT going to crack Moscow that way.

Don’t take the bait, play conservative, and wipe the Russians out when you will still have units for the subsequent attack against them.

[Jennifer]

Hypothetically speaking, you could build 8 Armor on Germany 1.  Take out the British Transport in the Hudson and take Egypt with your bid. (2 Infantry, Artillery, Armor in Libya and the BB/Trn with Inf/Art or Inf/Arm in Egypt to close the canal.)

So I’m not sure how spent you are.  However, you will lose all forward momentum until you can get some infantry again.  Then again, Russia may be set back way too far to recover in time for England and America to stop their fall, no?

---

Follow up question:

You just lost all your units on W. Russia.  You have 3 Inf, 3 Arm, 2 Fig in Russia, 4 Inf in Sinkiang, 2 Inf in Novosibirsk and 6 Inf in Buryatia.  Karelia, Caucasus, W. Russia are in Germany’s hands.  Egypt is closed with 3 Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor in it.

How do you recover?

[Hobbes]

@ncscswitch:

But the main thing is, once you wipe out West Russia, THEN WHAT?  You are spent as Germany.  You have no more forward units, no ARM, and probably lost some airforce as well.  What will you use to follow up your attack on Russia?  Not much, you have nothing left in range, and will need at least 2 turns just to get ARM there without an INF screen.  By that time, Russia can build 15+ INF in addition to Allied aircraft, so Germany is NOT going to crack Moscow that way.

Don’t take the bait, play conservative, and wipe the Russians out when you will still have units for the subsequent attack against them.

On my move up there I forgot to mention 3 inf from norway to kar on NCM.

Then you have: 9 inf (Kar+Ukr) + 4 arm (Ukr+EE) to move again on WRus. Or you can split them between Cauc, WRus and Archangel if you want to bleed R a bit. If UK moved the fleet to the Med sink it with the Med fleet + airforce. Then allied player will have to sacrifice Africa if he wants to pressure G that hard.

[Romulus]

Russia may recover faster from an early blow, because their purchases are already in the front line. While German reinforcements arrive they have built at least 2 tanks and about 10-12 infantries (at end of R2).
The advanced German forces in West Russia may be object of counterattack from Moscow and destroyed in R2, Caucasus may be traded each turn.
I think that such scenario is the opposite of German desired scenario: now Russia is bleeding dry Germany.
With all German purchases going to Russia (trying to recover from the loss of all the Eastern Army) it is more difficult to stack WE. Allies may try to strike there, and then what Germany will do? The main part of hers assets are bogged down in Russia, far from the Europe.

I think that it is better to simply advance on G1 in Ukraine, taking Caucasus and sinking all the British ship that is possible to sink.
I personally could consider to make a strafing attack to West Russia, withdrawing to Ukraine, and stacking the main army there in order to wearing down the Red Army and then moving on Caucasus when Japanese show at the gates of Moscow.

[Guest]

Recovery is pretty simple…

INF plus an ARM a round for purchases.
USA sends FIGs to Moscow (2 turns for 2 FIGs to arrive)
UK makes a Round 1 landing in Karelia via SZ4 (depending on location of German FIGs), otherwise beeds up for a Round 2 landing in Archangel.

[Jennifer]

Let’s remember that odds are Germany is reduced to armor in W. Russia, most likely.  They might have two, but probably just one.  That’s pretty easy for Russia to take out.

Russia 2 you can build 7 Infantry, 1 Armor (26 IPC) and all will fit in the Russian IC. (Remember Caucasus was taken out on G1.)

I’d like the idea of moving into SZ 5 with the British, however, I’m wondering if an Aerial assault on SZ 5 with 2 Fighters, Bomber with a purchase of 3 Transports, 2 Infantry might not be warranted? (This would give England 4 Transports, 2 Battleships in SZ 8 or SZ 7, I’m leaning more towards SZ 7 since it’s in range of SZ 5 and SZ 3.)

Question is, can Russia hold out until America and England can get there?  Should England land in Norway on Round 2, then on Round 3 start landing in Archangelsk?

[Guest]

I would land in Karelia on UK1, and build TRNs out of range of the Luftwaffe in SZ2 which can be used to add more units to the Karelia/Archangel (and Norway if you like) landings in UK2.

Germany would have to commit a MINIMUM of 2 FIG, 1 BOM to attacking the SZ4 fleet (1 TRN, 1 BB, 1 USSR SUB for fodder) just to have even odds of taking out the UK fleet on G2.  With that force it is typically mutual destruction (putting the Germans down to 3 FIGs total since they likely lost 1 to AA fire over West Russia on G1 if they attacked the massed Russians).  As UK I’ll take that since on UK2 I would just build a capital ship and land forces in SZ3, move my multiple TRNs from my UK1 purchase and the one from SZ1 and take Norway in force.  Then on UK3 I can take Karelia with some serious firepower.

Then Germany has to decide if those units that it built G1 and moved to Eastern in G2 are going to try for Moscow (which is building up defenses and has destroyed the German forces in Caucuses and West Russia), or turn north to take on the UK forces in Karelia.  Either choice when you are out of ARM and down to less than 50% air force is not a pretty thought for Germany.

[Amon-Sul]

@ncscswitch:

That extra BB is deadly if allowed to live.

yeah, i dont mind much if it threatens W.Europe but in our game you used it to sink my bat and tra in the Black Sea, which i needed to smash USSR  :cry:

altough West Med battle was risky i didnt anticipate to loose everything and your bat stays

but thats the risk a player must take when goin on a Moscow pointed Blitz-Krieg

hope it helps Jen :wink:

[Jennifer]

Assuming Germany has 5 Infantry in Karelia (3 Norway, 2 E. Europe) and built 8 Armor in Berlin on G1 (40 IPC), does that change your advise, or are you not so worried about an all out tank purchase by Germany to pound Russia into submission?

[Guest]

Nope.  I still get 2 builds of INF (16 units), and I still will get 2+ allied FIGs to Moscow in time to thwart the Germans, plus the USSR FIGs that still exist.

Add in if I made an otherwise typical R1, that gives me 20 INF, 4-6 FIGs, AA, plus either another 4 INF, or some ARM depending on the R1 build.

Go ahead, hit me with 3 FIGs, 8 ARM and 5 INF.  I like my odds on that battle as Russia :-)

[Jennifer]

Here’s the maps.  We have NA’s but most of them are not in effect.

Russia: Russian Winter (Doesn’t help for W. Russia battle, so didn’t call it.)
Germany: Atlantic Wall (German infantry defend at 3 or less against amphibious assaults)
England: Enigma Decoded (Used to save the British Armor and Fighter in Egypt)
Japan: Dug-In Defenders (Island Infantry defend at 3 or less)
America: Fast Carriers (Carriers move 3 spaces)

He gets to pick one more after America goes, but before Russia goes.  Makes it 3 and 3.

With England I went to SZ 7 to kill his fleet.  Saves me the whole headache clearing those submarines, destroyer, transports and battleship out of the med later.

So we have Switch who thinks Russia’s got plenty of time to put together a large infantry package to stop the Germans.  I’m a little more dubious.  If he continues the tanks he could, conceivably, put together as many tanks as I can infantry, I think.

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[Guest]

There was no reason to pre-clear the med.  The Americans could have sealed those units in.

The UK move to SZ7 instead of setting up the Classic reinforce of Karelia may be the allies downfall… no second set of ground units in Karelia/Archangel/Norway for the German’s to be wary of…

You are a Classic player Jen, you know how the Allied shuck into Karelia is supposed to work :-P

[Jennifer]

Yea, but those ships were juicy and I’m set up to hit W. Europe hard and dump American and British units into Africa.  That means he has to turn his tanks back to hit W. Europe or push on Russia.  Anyway, remember, those 5 infantry in Karelia defend at 3 or less because of his NA.  Basically, they’re tanks atm.

I’m thinkin America should go with 3 Fighters, Artillery, Transport for it’s build putting the fighters in E. USA so they can get to England then Russia in two turns.  The Artillery makes the 5 infantry in North America (2 C. USA, 2 W. USA, 1 Alaska) a full 3 transports, it too can go in E. USA.  That way when America lands in North Africa, it’s 1 round from a reinforcement invasion of N. Africa.  Thinking Germany with Africa in this game is going to be a nightmare.

[Guest]

Western, in a KRF (Kill Russia First) as a move for the Allies tends to be a losing move…