Is the idea that the troops left there are bait? Otherwise, I can’t really see the why.
I usually leave 6 behind just to provide a bit of a speed bump for Japan if they decide to go north. Not enough to pose a threat with all of the other 14 units heading back to Moscow.
The game doesn’t give Zhukov anything to work with. Where are his tanks and artillery and aircraft?
In addition to the 15 infantry divisions, there were also like 1,500 tanks and 1,500 aircraft stationed there to keep the Japanese at bay, and these were all battle hardened Khalkhin Gol vets.
Just for point of reference the entire Japanese Empire was fielding what like 4000 aircraft at the time? 1000 and change for the Army, like 3000 and change for the Navy. And the Russians were consistently out producing them in the air year to year.
I know there is no pretense of relative unit numbers in A&A, but you’d think the Soviets would have at least 1 air unit in the Far East, to Japan’s 20+.
Maybe a single tank in the Far East to show why Stalin was willing to entrust dude with fate of the entire Soviet Union when the Germans came knocking.
Instead Japan just smokes Amur on this board, if the Soviet player looks to history as any kind of guide for how they should be playing. Oh well. Guess it’s bounce or die.
:-D
Every time someone brings up realism in AxA i re read Khalkin Gol and how tin pressed tanks and 19th century japanese junk was supposed to take on a real modern combined arms force, over rough terrain, even a thrown together Soviet version transported into the wilderness and supported by cossack riders
japan fought a few skirmishes and gave up…and then 2 years later decided to attack the other future superpower on the water and islands…
zen like wisdom vs suicidal egotistical military junta?
not all tanks are created equal (except in AxA to keep things simple)
at least G41Oztea gives us a viable eastern force, but then the fantasy fun Axis advantage evaporates
good points, SH
they did make an amazing account of their technological progress and bravery, but thats not enough and just like Hitler, they made sure they traded friends for enemies at a rapid pace until there were no friends and theyd made a (semi) unprovoked war every other power on the planet
once they’d shown the soviets how weak their power projection and logistics (and equipment) were, and lost a few battles, they made their situation worse than if they hadnt probed and provoked at all. All those soviet units just went back west gradually, sometimes arriving off the TSR right in time to stop the nazis.
Maybe a standoff would have been better but the entire era is one of fatally agressive decisionmaking and self-destructive ambition
At the very least the 64 IPC value of units in Siberia should be redistributed into mobile units that give the Russian player flexibility to return to Moscow or send some units to China sooner.
I usually do what GHG does, if the Japanese attack those six, you get six for the six you lost in the attack. Often by round 3 or 4 you have a general idea of what the Axis are doing. If its Crussia, then I send 6 to Moscow, and leave the other 6 behind. If China is in trouble, then those 12 enter China. Otherwise they go to Moscow along with the AAA guns. That’s my take on it.
That’s an interesting idea, I’ll try it out at my next game
If Germany buy men for Russia G1 I “rush” all 20 units back. If Germany buy navy I group them in buryatia with the option of moving them back to Amur on R2
Sometimes I also move the Burytia men (6) back to moscow anyway on R1
good idea, oystello, to react.
If you want a real mobile force Russia East, try G41 by Oztea.
The answer to the OP’s question IMO? 1 guy. Leave 1 so they cant take it without committing at least 2 infantry.
So the general consensus is that leaving up to 6 men in Amur doesn’t much affect Japan’s opening move, so it doesn’t really matter. Leaving 7-10 might work as bait. Leaving anything higher than that is just dumb. How many you leave in Amur is merely a question of which options you want to keep open for round 2. If you leave any, you’re closing the option of moving those guys west. If you don’t leave any, you don’t have the option of attacking Manchuria or Korea, or at least putting pressure there to prevent Japanese troops from heading south.
For those of you that move everything west except a small speedbump, do you find that Japan feels free to move all his Manchurian and even Korean troops south? Even on a Jdow1, is he able to sweep through China? (I know someone is going to say that if Japan wants, there’s nothing you can do to prevent him from taking all of China easily, but that’s only if he prioritizes it. By moving all Siberian troops west, is Japan often able to take China and put pressure on India and defend DEI?)
Also, in your games does American ever have the chance to take Korea? If so, wouldn’t you want a few Ruskies to sit down on top of it?
I think I’m starting to lean toward leaving 8 guys on Amur round 1 as bait just to draw a lot of his guys up and away from the real fight. Or to attack Manchuria round 2 just to kill straggling ground troops if the option is there. It leaves enough guys to slow down mobile units blitzing through Siberia with a couple left over to go round Mongolia and protect the Chinese flank. But then again I usually have much easier time defending Moscow in its final hour than I do containing Japan.
For those of you that move everything west except a small speedbump, do you find that Japan feels free to move all his Manchurian and even Korean troops south? Even on a Jdow1, is he able to sweep through China? (I know someone is going to say that if Japan wants, there’s nothing you can do to prevent him from taking all of China easily, but that’s only if he prioritizes it. By moving all Siberian troops west, is Japan often able to take China and put pressure on India and defend DEI?)
Also, in your games does American ever have the chance to take Korea? If so, wouldn’t you want a few Ruskies to sit down on top of it?
Usually, leaving six behind as a speed bump is enough for Japan to leave at least 6-7 of their own on the border. Even if a J1 DOW happens. That’s [Insert number that the Japanese leave] not attacking vital Allied Territories(India, Malaya, China, Etc.). Usually Korea is jumped on by the Russians, in my games(Late game). Those other 12 you move away is either going to support China or Moscow, or both. Its based mostly on what is happening during the game.
Leaving 7-10 might work as bait. Leaving anything higher than that is just dumb. How many you leave in Amur is merely a question of which options you want to keep open for round 2. If you leave any, you’re closing the option of moving those guys west. If you don’t leave any, you don’t have the option of attacking Manchuria or Korea, or at least putting pressure there to prevent Japanese troops from heading south.
going to try the 7-10 infantry left in Amur. You’re right, ANYTHING higher is dumb. What Russia wants to do on R2 is its own choice, with the exception of a G1 Barbarossa or it looks like the Axis are going for Crussia.
If you give each country really realistic number of troops how would the axis even think of wining. Some things are changed for game balance as well as realism, russia wasnt going to attack japan because it didnt feel like it. Us would not go to war over phili or london it would stay in isolation unless japan or germany declared war or attacked them directly. And no sane axis player would ever attack the US, they would take the money island, phili, india, london, middle east, australia and then consider russia. After all was sorted they would maby attack the US.
I don’t agree with your opinion about what it would take for the US to join the allies in WW2. I believe the US would NOT have stayed out of the war over Philippines or London. At the time, the Philippines was a US territory with lots of US troops there. That’s self-explanatory. Hawaii was no different at the time. Regarding London, the US has a connection with the UK that’s deeper than a traditional ally. I think Germany invading and taking over England would have brought a cry across the US strongly advocating to liberate them. However, if Germany did pull that off, I’m not really sure that the US would have had what it would have taken to do that. The US Army had lots of growing pains when American troops really started fighting a lot in 1943. At that time troops and commanders were all very inexperienced.
If you wanted to re-tweak this, you could just give them the $64 IPCs and let the design the force that is up there. However, there would be an optimal way to do this, which would be quickly discovered, and it wouldn’t be so much flexible as obvious (eg, buy 5-6 fighters, send em home…)
The pieces here aren’t a threat because there aren’t any mobile, threat projection units with them. So, Japan isn’t too scared when you leave them nearby, and they have a diplomacy rule to hide behind (loss of Mongolian help).
Really, you need to block Japan and slow him down as much as you can, 1 guy 1 territory at a time. Having those guys head back for Moscow has an additional plus; if most of them survive you have a force waiting in North Central Russia that can counterattack Japan as they try to rip Russias backdoor apart and take all your $$$.
As you are stating, the fact that the submarine war (and the blitz) appeared to be putting the UK close to the ropes was a MAJOR factor in ending US neutrality. The US began “neutrality patrols” guarding ships carrying arms as far as they could justify, and right before the war, even attacking german submarines carrying out “legitimate attacks” on UK war shipping.
German repeatedly protested this “interested neutrality” in both world war 1 and 2. The US hid behind this to ship arms to multiple belligerent parties, of its choosing and in its own interest, which is about as not-neutral as it gets. That’s some “Special Relationship” as the british call it.
As I’ve pointed out before, I believe 1-2 US destroyers were sunk and had begun depth charging german contacts before December 7, 1941, so the German submarine captains already understood that they were standing on the line between war and peace.
Wikipedia;
“In the “Greer Incident” on 4 September 1941 the destroyer USS Greer (DD-145) was fired upon with torpedoes by German submarine U-652.”
“Either the casualties inflicted on USS Kearny by German submarine U-568 on 17 October 1941 (11 KIA)[7] or the sinking of the USS Reuben James by U-552 on 31 October 1941, (115 KIA)[8] might be considered the first American naval losses of World War II. The United States was neither officially involved in the war at the time nor did the incidents cause them to declare war.”
The american public and congress did not want to declare war but the president and some staff did.
Without the attack on pearl and the public cry for revenge i doubt it that the congress would even declare war because the public would not like it at all.I always find it funny that Americans judge the japanese attack on pearl as a violation while at the same time they where violating the rules even more.
But history didnt work out that way, japan did attack the US after being provoked plenty and germany just declared war on the US ( but hitler did more stupid things )
Probably Hitler was hoping that his Japanese allies would do the same against Russia and Stalin.
He would have needed that oriental soviet troops be stuck with Japan.
@Baron:
The american public and congress did not want to declare war but the president and some staff did.
Without the attack on pearl and the public cry for revenge i doubt it that the congress would even declare war because the public would not like it at all.I always find it funny that Americans judge the japanese attack on pearl as a violation while at the same time they where violating the rules even more.
But history didnt work out that way, japan did attack the US after being provoked plenty and germany just declared war on the US ( but hitler did more stupid things )
Probably Hitler was hoping that his Japanese allies would do the same against Russia and Stalin.
He would have needed that oriental soviet troops be stuck with Japan.
Yeah, he was hoping that would have happened. If he didn’t declare war on the US, then the War would have been separate still.
