Definitely.
Nazi Germany VS The Soviet Union
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Only if Japan had attacked in the Far East (and perhaps had not expanded into the Paciific) would Germany have had a chance at totally taking out the Soviet Union…also if Hitler had let the Generals totally run the operation!
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ah, the classic axis and allies solution.
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Only if Japan had attacked in the Far East (and perhaps had not expanded into the Paciific) would Germany have had a chance at totally taking out the Soviet Union…also if Hitler had let the Generals totally run the operation!
Japan had a few battles with the Soviet Union before it decided to go against the US … it was either war with USSR or the Pacific and after losing terribly against the Soviets they decided to go for the Pacific resources rather than the Siberian ones it needed.
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It would have went differently for Japan the next time around if they had decided to go the Siberian route because the Germans were on Moscow’s door.
I Personally think Japan was stronger in the Pacifici then on Land.
Japan was trained and suited for Jungle fighting & Navy
I don’t recall them having any great equipement on land (there tanks wern’t that great?)But yes if Japan had helped relieved Germany a bit it would have made a huge difference, I mean especially at the crucial points in the war…them extra million Japaneese soldiers with 1,000+ zeros would have gotten some attention from the Soviet Union.
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I have no doubt the Japanese would have made significant inroads into Russia, but I do not think that they would have been able to maintain supply roads far into the interior of the Soviet Union. My only question is one concerning the personality of Stalin….how much if at all would he direct to oppose a japanese invasion? Or would he put up minimal resistence and let the supply lines strech till gurrillas could cut harrass them so much the japanese could not move any farther?
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HUH???
This is not true at all. Japan had no answer for the greater mechanization and adept training of the Army facing the Kwangtung Army. The country is totally inhospitable and useless for any economic value in the short term This idea of Japan having some great capability to push deep into the vast interior of Soviet eastern territories is total bunk. The Kwangtung Army could barely feed itself and make any progress in China after 1941. The only strategic value to anybody was Vladivostok which was at least sometimes a warm water port. Their could never be any Japanese push into the Urals unless Japan could find its way into a modern army. The only thing they had going for them was that navy and half of that was old British battle cruisers and old converted carriers. The best thing was those pilots and the lance torpedo and decent night action training… but once our pilots started training at a huge advantage in quantity over Japan it was only a matter of time before we got better at aerial combat.
Thats why Japan went for USA. They considered what they needed to win the war and Russia didn’t offer any prospect for the Japanese point of view. Japan needed oil and the Soviet far east offered none. The American fleets were what stood in the way of that oil ( and the embargo) so… the enemy became easy… to defeat America was all that was needed to establish her Empire as they saw it.
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IL is exactly right there would have been no advantage or purpose for the Japanese to invade Russia outside of maybe bragging rights at most. If the Germans would have commited to a complete invasion of Russia they would have been successful. The Russian people origonally welcomed the German forces with open arms until the SS came along and started murdering and destroying everyone and everything in there way. The reality of it is if as many of ya’ll have said Hitler had left it to his commanders and if the SS hadn’t ticked everyone off the Russian people would have been much happier under German rule and the Germans would have conquered Russia easily. Back to the SS issue mentioned earlier by some of ya’ll, the SS was not an eliete part ot the Wermacht. It was a unit filled with guys who in most cases were nothing short of maniacs. They were murders while the Wermacht was only doing what its nation called it to do. The SS was just a group of guys so deathly loyal to hitler that they could be asked to do anything that Hitler claimed was for the benifit of Germany (or him) and they would do it no questions asked. Which is why we had the Holocaust and is why an entire part of my family disapeared. Saying the SS was an eliete branch of the wermacht is completly inaccurate.
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I bielive otherwise, yes the SS were maniacs, but I would definitaly call them an elite part of the whermatch (spelling) they were the equivilant if not more than the US Rngers and british SAS troops at the time. Out of all the units in the germany military, the SS was the most difficult to defeat cause they were so dedicated to nothing but victory, no surrender, no prisoners, and the fuhur himself. But unltimatly, that was there demise, whole SS units and divsions were wipped out because they refused to except defeat and surrender. That and they pissed everyone off no matter were they went. In the Battle of Berlin, the last of the SS killed so many diserters and traiters, the “whermatch” (hitler juden by now) seirously wanted to trade sides.
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The Waffen SS were the best troops in the war bar none. Their ranks were made of only the best skilled soldiers who have won decorations in other fields. They were the brightest and fearless and they suffered hard in battle because they usually met their objectives. However, during the late war period the best had already fallen so their was some loss of elan because all the skilled troops were already dead. If the 1943 SS panzer divisions were intact in 1944 for Bulge they would have gotten to Antwerp.
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@Imperious:
The Waffen SS were the best troops in the war bar none. Their ranks were made of only the best skilled soldiers who have won decorations in other fields. They were the brightest and fearless and they suffered hard in battle because they usually met their objectives. However, during the late war period the best had already fallen so their was some loss of elan because all the skilled troops were already dead. If the 1943 SS panzer divisions were intact in 1944 for Bulge they would have gotten to Antwerp.
And how!!...I mean that as in I agree strongly…
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The Japanese could have been successful against the Soviets in 1941 and 1942, because Stalin had transfered all his armor and most of his troops out of the far east to combat the Germans, but once the Soviets gained the upper hand, they could have shifted troops east, including armor. Russian T 34s against Japanese light tanks? The Japanese thought they could beat us in one battle, where as they knew the Russians would be more difficult, having fought them before.
And as for the SS, I have been trying to drill through the thick skulls of people here who have been indoctrinated with left wing propaganda that simply being a member of the SS did not make a man a genocidal maniac like Hitler. Hitler had his own intentions for the SS, true, but what the SS actually was was an elite organization of the Whermacht, made up of the finest soldiers that Germany could muster. Kind of like the U.S. Marine Corp. :mrgreen:
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great…now no matter what we say m36 you attribute it to left wing propaganda. no 36 i do not contend that all SS were bad, however, when hitler needed his dirty deeds done he turned to his SS.
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In August 1945 the Soviets attacked Manchuria and the Kwangtung Army folded like a cheap tent. It was basically the same army as 1941. Of course moral was not so good.
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Yes but you can’t compare the 1945 Soviets to the 1941 Soviets…
The Japaneese were just as suicidal as the Russians which were the making of major losses to both sides.
each side didn’t care about the losses in men.Japan would have been at a disavantage in armor department but there air-force comprising of Zeros would have helped out…
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Moscow was saved in 1941 also by intervention of the siberian troops. Had the Japanese attacked the Russia together with Germany in June 1941, those troops had to stay in the Far East, and Zukov haven’t had any reinforcement on Moscow, so Russian had lost one of the positive factor of the battle. There was no need for the Japan to defeat the Siberian troops (and they hardly had defeated Russian, they alredy was defeated in 1939 in Manchuria). It had been sufficient just to keep them occupied, avoiding going as reinforcement to Europe. Having signed a treaty on non aggresion alloved Stalin the freedom to strip all the troops from Far East and bring them in defense of Moscow. Had Moscow fallen, beside of the political and moral effects, Russia had lost their greater rail center, effectively separating north from south rail networks and severing their link with the East. Industry beyond Urals, in fact, used Moscow railway net to deliver their products to Red Army. Lost Moscow, Russian logistic have had very big problems, almost impossible to resolve in few time.
However there is also a German logistical problem to consider. In the plan of Hitler URSS have to fall in 6 weeks. So Hitler do not allow to plan for the winter campaign, because in his view war with Russia have to be finished before. Who touched this argumentation in the OKW was at the risk of being assailed by Hitler with accuse of defeatism. By the way, Winter of 1941 had been the most cold winter of the XX century. Even Siberian troops suffered the cold. Guderian was stoppend more by the frost than from the enemy at Tula, that is at few Km from Moscow. German soldier on the Moscow front entered in battle with the summer uniform. Rifle and MG have not lubricant oil adapt to the lower temperature. Even Panzer may stay always with engine on to avoid freezing problems.
Not to re-open a discussion, but there is a big difference between Waffen SS and SS. The former was essentially Wehrmacht crack soldiers. The latter are originally a private militia of Nazi Party, that first became an internal policy force and then was appointed to manage affairs in the occupied teritories of Europe. Their “management” was cause of a lot of atrocities, murdering, deportation and plundering. They were also involved in the genocide of Jews.
Waffen SS were wonderful soldiers, among the best in WWII. Maybe only veteran Marines and hardened Guard Red Army Soldier may compare with them. There are some episodes of they being involved in atrocities, this is true. Particularly where there was not the possibility for the ordinary SS to intervene. But also soldiers of other nations make the same thing.
For example, in a recent book I read I was orrified by the story of what Russian soldiers made in Germany and specifically in Berlin, in 1945. -
The only reason the Russians crushed the Japanese so easily in 45 was because they had transfered so many divisions back to the east once the Germans where defeated. With these divisions came all of their latest weaponry ranging from JS3 Tanks to MIG fighters. In 1941, the Russian presence in the east was hollow.
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In 1939 the border clashes with Zhukov proved an another disaster for the Kwangtung Army which at that point was in its prime as a fighting force after fighting China for a few years. Whats the explanation that time? The Soviets had inferior equipment and planes and poor mechanization in 39.
This was the primary reason why they didn’t consider attacking the Soviets.
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they could not beat them
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no exploitable resources
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no value as a military conquest ( except to Germany)
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didn’t help establish Greater East Asia Co- prosperity sphere.
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no coordination of larger global war with her allies ( cultures radically too different led to some suspicions)
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Zhukov couldn’t be in two places at once. I think he would have been more concerned with the Germans then the Japaneese.
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The clashes they had were Japan “testing the waters” and I agree with you they could not do much against them and there was no gain for them really…
BUT if they had decided to team up with Germany in 1941 and attack Russia then that makes a difference, if Japan had trully committed everything to help Germany bring Russia down, I would have imagined they would have shared resources of the spoils…etc…
The problem was yes Japan had a pact with Germany but they had 2 seperate goals, they were only really considered allies I suppose because the allies didn’t like either of them and had to fight both of them
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If Japan did as you say… then they would run out of oil in 6 months because they didn’t take all these pacific islands to create and safeguard the empire from Anglo incursions. The fleet would not move and be just the like the rusting Italian fleet… and the empire would be easy pickings. And they could not do BOTH… it took them till April 42 just to finish all these operations. If they invaded in May 42 the bulk of their Army now in eastern Russia… then China would gather its strength and throw them out of Manchuria. As it was that campaign became a constant occupation of Japaneses forces just to hold on to what they had.
Japan didn’t have the capability to Invade China, Take out Pacific fleet, Remove British power from the orient, AND invade Russia… this is way too much to ask a nation that hasn’t modernized her economy.
The only solution was to negotiate peace with USA and THEN turn to Russia. China was like having a second front for the Japanese.
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Germany was to lose against Russia even if they captured Moscow. The failure of Germany to turn Operation Barbarossa into the Soviet civil war, would have coasted them the war under almost any circumstance.
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