More on religion….

[Amon-Sul]

@ieatcrayons:

@Amon-Sul:

nobody still didnt told me why arent the accused priests accused for jail sentences, if they done something like these then there shouldn be any bargains, this is not theft, or something to do with money, the whole story doesnt have anthing with money, if they are guilty they should go to jail, and if Church failed to solve the problems then they can speak with the Chruch about  Church donating money to prevent this, or in some other charity

These holy men aren’t doing jail time because it’s far easier for the Catholic church to pay $660M than to have the broadcast media plastered with every Catholic diocese on TV for the length of the scandal and trial.

is it?

what kind of message is this, i think both conservatives and the libertarians wont be satisified with these, there is no victory if the responsible are not judged,

[Jermofoot]

@Amon-Sul:

well, i am not quite sure if i understand what you tried to say here but it seems to me you are insulting, big time

I was using it in the sense that Switch describes, as a joke.

i dont judge you, but believe you in God or not, there is a line, and you have crossed way down it  :-(

Perhaps you don’t judge me, but your faith does.

and say what you want but beetwen protestant clergy and all other lay man, ateists…( besides muslims and some animalistic beliefs, so i dont affend them as i dont know them )  is much more in % number of pedofils, and deviant people than beetwen catholic clergy

It doesn’t matter - this is just distraction.
I don’t care who else does it, the Church needs to be responsible for their actions.  And they acted dishonorably for many years, so they pay.

i see you have hatred for Church and for it stands for as you simply cant accept it, that the Church will never give up on protecting the values that mean something, we are not perfect, we are a ˝bark that leaks on all sides˝, but as our Lord said to Peter  the gates of hell want overpower us, who are you to think you can  :x

I don’t care either way for the church, I wish more people tried to live like Jesus, but it’s people that ruin the faith, not the faith itself.
Funny that you should mention hell, because I don’t necessarily believe in it, but you are damning me for no other reason than I’m not in your stupid club.
And before you react to my stupid club statement, let me say that all faiths are stupid clubs, I can just tolerate some faiths and their adherents (or even individual people of various faiths) more than others.  I don’t see Switch criticizing my life…

the thing is that this priests should if they done anything wrong be sentenced to prison, to prison!!!

Except that some of them are dead, and this trial would go beyond single priests to how the Church mishandled the situation, knowing what was going on.

if not than all this thing is ridiculous, if its so, to insist on getting some money to ˝get even˝ something  and then not insisting on suing them, so they dont hurt nobody anymore, and that with strong punishments the number of these crime reduces

The Church chose to settle.
It’s a shame that money is the preferred medium of restitution, but I don’t know what result would be better.

i would say its a pact with the devil
and the devil here is also in Churches lines, not just in USA, so you dont think i have anything against you

Not at all, but think of this money as penance.

and yes, i ll pray to God that he helps me, i find myself a sinner, and a weak mean,

You do realize that you are doing this to yourself, don’t you?

and just one thing , i dont have anything against you, just against that what you ( sometimes, most of the time ) write and what you stand for, if you stand for something, indeed stand for something

Aren’t what I write, say, and stand for tantamount to me?

[Amon-Sul]

@Jermofoot:

Aren’t what I write, say, and stand for tantamount to me?

not quite, you see if you stand for something that is bad, or evil in its nature or if you support something that istn right and justice than i must condemn those actions and type of behaviour

what i tried to say is that i dont dislike you in a way that i would hatred is too strong word, i dont know the word

well, i could talk to you, and cooperate with you in some stuff even knowing your world view is opposite than my is,  afcorse only if/until you break the line and start insulting my God, faith, Country, family…

i didnt know how to quote paste everything you wrote so i just took this one

and neither me or my faith judges you, and you either said it from hatred towards the Church or from lack of knowledge, either way you should pair more attention to what you write

you have condemned yourself by yourself  :cry:

and if i get it right you arent for the idea that priests that made those crimes should be sentenced to jail sentences?

[Amon-Sul]

@Jermofoot:

@Amon-Sul:

and yes, i ll pray to God that he helps me, i find myself a sinner, and a weak mean,

You do realize that you are doing this to yourself, don’t you?

well i can see through your sarcasm, if i get it right,   i apologise if its because of my poor english that i get it wrong

[Amon-Sul]

@Jermofoot:

@Amon-Sul:

and say what you want but beetwen protestant clergy and all other lay man, ateists…( besides muslims and some animalistic beliefs, so i dont affend them as i dont know them )  is much more in % number of pedofils, and deviant people than beetwen catholic clergy

It doesn’t matter - this is just distraction.
I don’t care who else does it, the Church needs to be responsible for their actions.  And they acted dishonorably for many years, so they pay.

i see you have hatred for Church and for it stands for as you simply cant accept it, that the Church will never give up on protecting the values that mean something, we are not perfect, we are a ˝bark that leaks on all sides˝, but as our Lord said to Peter  the gates of hell want overpower us, who are you to think you can  :x

I don’t care either way for the church, I wish more people tried to live like Jesus, but it’s people that ruin the faith, not the faith itself.
Funny that you should mention hell, because I don’t necessarily believe in it, but you are damning me for no other reason than I’m not in your stupid club.
And before you react to my stupid club statement, let me say that all faiths are stupid clubs, I can just tolerate some faiths and their adherents (or even individual people of various faiths) more than others.  I don’t see Switch criticizing my life…

if i criticise you it was in good intentions, there is something called positive criticism, with desire to help
but last time i looked i wasnt even criticising your life, just your statements,  switch is a liberal but that doesnt mean i have anything against you or him beacuse you are an ˝ateist˝ and he is a liberal. but if i renounce for what i stand for, than its better that i am gone

and i am trying to do it in a way of not hurting and insulting anybody,  if i crossed that line than i apologise

but that still doesnt mean you can spit on everything that means something to me in my life, and when i condemn your actions you will just stay, but switch doesnt insults me or something like that

you know very easily how to criticise with bad intensions, and arent willing to accept positive criticism, well sorry but it isnt right :?

[Amon-Sul]

@Jermofoot:

i see you have hatred for Church and for it stands for as you simply cant accept it, that the Church will never give up on protecting the values that mean something, we are not perfect, we are a ˝bark that leaks on all sides˝, but as our Lord said to Peter  the gates of hell want overpower us, who are you to think you can  :x

I don’t care either way for the church, I wish more people tried to live like Jesus, but it’s people that ruin the faith, not the faith itself.
Funny that you should mention hell, because I don’t necessarily believe in it, but you are damning me for no other reason than I’m not in your stupid club.
And before you react to my stupid club statement, let me say that all faiths are stupid clubs, I can just tolerate some faiths and their adherents (or even individual people of various faiths) more than others.  I don’t see Switch criticizing my life…

well, now you tryin to say you want to insult all religious communities, that it isnt just Catholic Church,  well you are an ˝ateist˝ and i wouldnt call your ˝ateist˝ club stupid unless your only goal is to fight the true moral values for what Church and some other stand for, and i still dont know you that much that i can say it for you, but even still i wouldn insult you, at least i would try not to as its in the tendencies of my faith, to respect the dignity of every man

and i didnt mentioned hell beacuse of you, nor trying to link you with it, it was a quotiation from The Bible

[Amon-Sul]

@Jermofoot:

I wish more people tried to live like Jesus, but it’s people that ruin the faith, not the faith itself.

well i dont totally agree with this one but its a start  :-) :-) :-)

[Jermofoot]

@Amon-Sul:

not quite, you see if you stand for something that is bad, or evil in its nature or if you support something that istn right and justice than i must condemn those actions and type of behaviour

Nothing is evil in nature: it is what it is, and humans try to attribute/give it meaning in someway by calling it good or evil.  It’s a concept made by man.

well, i could talk to you, and cooperate with you in some stuff even knowing your world view is opposite than my is,  afcorse only if/until you break the line and start insulting my God, faith, Country, family…

Of course, that is the only way, but I don’t insult anyone deliberately, unless, perhaps, they deserve it.

and neither me or my faith judges you, and you either said it from hatred towards the Church or from lack of knowledge, either way you should pair more attention to what you write

Of course you have, as well as your faith.  I’m an atheist, by your admission, automatically resigning me to hell, according to your faith.

you have condemned yourself by yourself  :cry:

I force people of your or similar faiths to tell me to go to hell?

and if i get it right you arent for the idea that priests that made those crimes should be sentenced to jail sentences?

No, I’m all for it, if possible.  But this case wasn’t against the priests, it was against the diocese for failing to act appropriately with its own priests’ actions.

@Amon-Sul:

well i can see through your sarcasm, if i get it right,  i apologise if its because of my poor english that i get it wrong

No sarcasm intended.
I was saying that the guilt is yours alone, brought upon your own expectations, and whether you actions met those expectations or not.
There is no God punishing you or forcing you to seek redemption - you do this on your own, from your own beliefs.  Had you been raised an atheist, reality would be the same way, just possibly your expectations, actions, and feelings about them might be different.
There is a God, because you think there is a God, but that doesn’t mean God exists universally.

@Amon-Sul:

and say what you want but beetwen protestant clergy and all other lay man, ateists…( besides muslims and some animalistic beliefs, so i dont affend them as i dont know them )  is much more in % number of pedofils, and deviant people than beetwen catholic clergy

It doesn’t matter - this is just distraction.
I don’t care who else does it, the Church needs to be responsible for their actions.  And they acted dishonorably for many years, so they pay.

if i criticise you it was in good intentions, there is something called positive criticism, with desire to help
but last time i looked i wasnt even criticising your life, just your statements,  switch is a liberal but that doesnt mean i have anything against you or him beacuse you are an ˝ateist˝ and he is a liberal. but if i renounce for what i stand for, than its better that i am gone

Actually, I don’t think you’ve really criticized me, I was meaning “you” in the sense of Catholics in general, as opposed to Switch, whose faith is non-Christian.  How do you know Switch isn’t an atheist?

and i am trying to do it in a way of not hurting and insulting anybody,  if i crossed that line than i apologise

No apology necessary as you haven’t insulted me.  balung bashes me quite a few times a day, at least indirectly, and I don’t require an apology from him.  You wouldn’t be the first to criticize me anyway.

but that still doesnt mean you can spit on everything that means something to me in my life, and when i condemn your actions you will just stay, but switch doesnt insults me or something like that

I’ve hardly spit on anything.
Your view is that your belief is correct, normal, preferred.  Excuse me if I feel annoyed that I find this belief to be wrong & conceited.

you know very easily how to criticise with bad intensions, and arent willing to accept positive criticism, well sorry but it isnt right :?

You are confusing snark with a desire to destroy.  I gladly will accept positive criticism, but if you are suggesting I convert, then no thanks.

@Amon-Sul:

well, know you tryin to say you want to insult all religious communities, that it isnt just Catholic Church,  well you are an ˝ateist˝ and i wouldnt call your ˝ateist˝ club stupid unless your only goal is to fight the true moral values for what Church and some other stand for, and i still dont know you that much that i can say it for you, but even still i wouldn insult you, at least i would try not to as its in the tendencies of my faith, to respect the dignity of every man

and i didnt mentioned hell beacuse of you, nor trying to link you with it, it was a quotiation from The Bible

Atheism isn’t a club.  In fact, it’s the default belief/nonbelief.
Belief is voluntary, not a requirement.  I just find the thought of organized religion absurd, some less than others though.  What really bothers me is when a religion that is supposed to be about love, tolerance, all of humankind, damns other religions that tolerate, or damns people not associated with the organization.

[Amon-Sul]

Well Devil is evil total evil, pure evil, he was an Angel, but he has choosen death

Of course you have, as well as your faith.  I’m an atheist, by your admission, automatically resigning me to hell, according to your faith.

I put ˝ateist˝ like this. Beacuse i believe( and many people and teologists agree) that there simply are no ateists. Every man believes, the tendecies towards faiths is implanted in every human. And there is none which hadnt had supernatural experience, who hasnt feeled God´s love, neither he is aware of it or not.

Just if someone says he is an ateist it doesnt have to be so. He can lie, or he could be wrong

I force people of your or similar faiths to tell me to go to hell?

i  never said this, you can even die as an ˝ateist˝ and save maybe, God´s grace is boundless. Its just didnt all people receive the same, so all wouldnt be treated the same

i am not encouraging you to continue like this, afcorse but you are indeed condemning you with your own words, and it will turn you back in this world, hope not in the other for your sake

No sarcasm intended.
I was saying that the guilt is yours alone, brought upon your own expectations, and whether you actions met those expectations or not.
There is no God punishing you or forcing you to seek redemption - you do this on your own, from your own beliefs.  Had you been raised an atheist, reality would be the same way, just possibly your expectations, actions, and feelings about them might be different.
There is a God, because you think there is a God, but that doesn’t mean God exists universally.

yes i should thank God for puting me in a christian family, youre right
and i stand for my actions, i respond for what i ve done, for what i didnt believe, and for what i believed in

Actually, I don’t think you’ve really criticized me, I was meaning “you” in the sense of Catholics in general, as opposed to Switch, whose faith is non-Christian.  How do you know Switch isn’t an atheist?

i dont know, even if he is, that doesnt mean i am going to send him PM and tell him to convert, i could do that, but i dont see it as a good solution in my heart
i respect him, and if he is a beliver, or monoteist, or even christian than i am happy for him:)

I’ve hardly spit on anything.
Your view is that your belief is correct, normal, preferred.  Excuse me if I feel annoyed that I find this belief to be wrong & conceited.

no it isnt in that, you can disagree with me here, but the way in which you act is what matters,  you are trying to sotonize the Church and even dont believe that Satan exists, well , ididnt mean anything bad here so…

You are confusing snark with a desire to destroy.  I gladly will accept positive criticism, but if you are suggesting I convert, then no thanks.

what is snark? i dont suggest anything, i dont want to destroy you or anybody else, and when did i mentioned you to convert to christianity, so what if i say something about my faith ii immediately means i wont to convert you, man,  if your country has been 400 years under torture of Otoman rule you would know what means forcing to convert
this is simply ridiculous

Atheism isn’t a club.  In fact, it’s the default belief/nonbelief.
Belief is voluntary, not a requirement.  I just find the thought of organized religion absurd, some less than others though.  What really bothers me is when a religion that is supposed to be about love, tolerance, all of humankind, damns other religions that tolerate, or damns people not associated with the organization.

again you are acusing me for something i have never said, or even if i said earlier on this forum what i wihdrawn

i respect other religions, other people, and dont hate ateists

take the Holy Father´s words, and tell me what he damns, if you are refering to that speach about islam, it was put out of context, pope was in fact said several times what he thinks about islam and muslims, so…

and sorry, but i dont have more will for this beacuse it simply takes much time

i just hope the priests if they are guilty will be sentenced and that Church will strengtheen, and fight against pedofila and other evil with more decision

[Amon-Sul]

sorry i wasnt able to put in two colors correctly, but its pretty obvious who said what

[Yemble]

Bung- a thesis is not the same as a book.  Thesis’ are generally read by a handful of professors and students.  Since students who are liberal generally go to liberal schools and conservatives go to conservative schools the scrutiny that is focused on your paper is not coming from the full political, social, and economic spectrum.  Thesis’ are not critisized by a large audience as are books, thus the potential for flaws to go unnoticed is greater.  Because history is often controversial in what is truth, as we know historians often disagree.  In the effort to present what an author believes is the truth pertaining to history they present a side, and unfortunately these sides have become politisized today.  I know we both have no faith in a liberal prof judging a liberal paper and a conservative prof a conservative paper.  It is only when something is truly open to the public where a large sample of “educated” people from across the social strata that a book comes under considerate and true scrutiny.  Because my thesis has not undergone such a gauntlet and a mere four years of studying history I do not consider myself a historian, I reserve that honor and distinction to people who spend years studying certain aspects of history and get their doctorate.

[Guest]

You know, I honestly think that this thread has been a very positive thing.

Sure, we had some venting, some statements that are not supportive of other folks, etc.  And each of us still walks in here with our preconceptions and our pre-existing judgments.

But this is dialogue.  Ans that leads to understanding.  And it is tough to truly “hate” when you understand what another person thinks and feels, and moe importantly WHY they think and feel that way (OK, now that I have said that you can officially label me a liberal for purposes of this thread :-P )

But seriously…
The problem, at least as I see it as a Neo-Pagan living in the Bible Belt, is that far too many of my neighbors have totally closed minds.  They will not see anyone beyond their own faith as anything more than either the “enemy” or as a target for conversion.  But MOST folks, when they are honest with themselves, actually ARE open to understanding others… if they can get past the dogma that precludes it.

It is my HOPE that people will eventually outstrip their religious leaders and move toward understanding and co-existence. 
It is my FEAR that they never will and a very small, radical and bitter few will retain control of the many who follow…

[666]

@ncscswitch:

far too many of my neighbors have totally closed minds.  They will not see anyone beyond their own faith as anything more than either the “enemy” or as a target for conversion.

Sounds like your neighbors are religious fanatics? Doesn’t sound like a place I’d like to live or raise children. Smells like……Kabul, Karachi, Tehran?

[Guest]

Sorry, that is everywhere I have lived in North Carolina.

[666]

Don’t be sorry. Hope I didn’t offend. Sounds like a scary place. Good luck holding back the armies of the preposterous there.

[Guest]

Hey, no sweat.  I have lost 2 jobs in NC because of religion.  I lost 1 for wearing a pentacle ring.  The other I lost after writing a letter to the editor in the newspaper in support of allowing a Coven to have religious rituals on Ft. Bragg.

I know how it goes, and simply am far better at self defense than I was those several years ago…

[Amon-Sul]

@ncscswitch:

But seriously…
The problem, at least as I see it as a Neo-Pagan living in the Bible Belt, is that far too many of my neighbors have totally closed minds.  They will not see anyone beyond their own faith as anything more than either the “enemy” or as a target for conversion.  But MOST folks, when they are honest with themselves, actually ARE open to understanding others… if they can get past the dogma that precludes it.

It is my HOPE that people will eventually outstrip their religious leaders and move toward understanding and co-existence. 
It is my FEAR that they never will and a very small, radical and bitter few will retain control of the many who follow…

just two things i taugt its important to say

and i wont disloyal my religious leader( pope ) but that doesnt mean i dont try to live in co-existence, and that i dont live in co-existence with my compatriots, but sometimes the other side is reserved and i dont want to force anything

recently in  Europe we had a big event
Taize meeting, which is held every year
40 000 young christians from all over Europe gathered in one place and were put in families, neverthelles are they catholic, protestant, orthodox

Every day there was a prayer in each parish for all young people which came there and it was in ˝Taize spirit˝ so acceptable to both catholics, protestant and orthodox
Every day animators from the home perishes were dividing the guests into groups and then they were debating about religion, or some moral issues, mostly things connected with religion
Each day was also a chance for young guests to pick something to visit for in the town;   to go to mosque, to go convent, to visit some war veterans and to have a chance to speak to all the people they encounter

every day was several things in offer, concerts also so you could only have a chance to catch 1 or 2 activities
and neither this activities, nor the prayers in the Church,  and the debates in schools werent obligatory, people could look around the city whole day if they wanted

New year was celerated in every parish mostly at schools,  my exp is that it was something really great
personally i wanted to go to mosque, as in my country a majority of people is islamofobic, and since i respect muslims  a lot, but i wasnt able to
the muslim community in Zagreb invited all the christians(  catholic, protestant, orthodox ) to come to  mosque and they invited peple for a concert of their lady´s choir

all people had to take of theri shues, and women had to cover their hads, it was winter so i think there werent much problem with unproperly dressed women

and the reactions after this event in the mosque and after entire thing( which was 5 days ) was simply fantastic, whole 5 days passed without a single inciddent, well  it wasn perfect, but it was truly great

so what i am trying to say is that you dont have to resign your own faith to live in co-existence with others, if you live by your faith,   if its a ˝good˝ faith then you should the more you˝are in to it˝ be much better as a person, as human, you ll respect others more,

co-existence, that is it :-) 8-) :wink:

[Jermofoot]

@Amon-Sul:

I put ˝ateist˝ like this. Beacuse i believe( and many people and teologists agree) that there simply are no ateists. Every man believes, the tendecies towards faiths is implanted in every human. And there is none which hadnt had supernatural experience, who hasnt feeled God´s love, neither he is aware of it or not.

Ok, I missed the quotes, or didn’t understand their use.
I would agree that spirituality is common within humans (I feel it, for sure), but that doesn’t mean one faith is right and others wrong.  In fact, it’s an argument against organized religion.

Just if someone says he is an ateist it doesnt have to be so. He can lie, or he could be wrong

Well, I would say I’m more agnostic than atheist, but it’s somewhat a blend of both.  I know I can’t say for sure, and I’m not saying God doesn’t exist (like I said, if God exists for you, then God exists in some manner), but more that I don’t care either way - it doesn’t change things for me.

i  never said this, you can even die as an ˝ateist˝ and save maybe, God´s grace is boundless. Its just didnt all people receive the same, so all wouldnt be treated the same

i am not encouraging you to continue like this, afcorse but you are indeed condemning you with your own words, and it will turn you back in this world, hope not in the other for your sake

There are plenty of people of your faith that think I’m going to hell, just because I don’t share the beliefs that you hold.  I don’t care that they think that - they can think what they want - just leave me alone about it, especially when I find it entirely counter to their faith.

i dont know, even if he is, that doesnt mean i am going to send him PM and tell him to convert, i could do that, but i dont see it as a good solution in my heart
i respect him, and if he is a beliver, or monoteist, or even christian than i am happy for him:)

Then you have a better grasp of your faith and human relations than many of your brethren.  But what about those that don’t believe?  They could just as easily damn you with their faith because you don’t agree.

no it isnt in that, you can disagree with me here, but the way in which you act is what matters,  you are trying to sotonize the Church and even dont believe that Satan exists, well , ididnt mean anything bad here so…

Sotonize?
I’m not sure what you mean there, but I was saying that settlement wasn’t out of line because the Diocese mishandled multiple cases for decades.  I wasn’t saying that the Church really is a bunch of pedophiles.

what is snark? i dont suggest anything, i dont want to destroy you or anybody else, and when did i mentioned you to convert to christianity, so what if i say something about my faith ii immediately means i wont to convert you, man,  if your country has been 400 years under torture of Otoman rule you would know what means forcing to convert
this is simply ridiculous

Snark can often seem rude, but I often rely on it for humorous effect, albeit at your expense.  You could describe it as a sarcastic or blunt remark that ridicules another’s comment, roughly.  You don’t see it so much in person, especially with people you don’t know, for obvious reasons.
I’m sorry about your occupation, but you can then understand how many Christians act in the US, such as Switch describes.

again you are acusing me for something i have never said, or even if i said earlier on this forum what i wihdrawn

i respect other religions, other people, and dont hate ateists

take the Holy Father´s words, and tell me what he damns, if you are refering to that speach about islam, it was put out of context, pope was in fact said several times what he thinks about islam and muslims, so…

How was I accusing you?  I was speaking generally about many religions.

and sorry, but i dont have more will for this beacuse it simply takes much time

I understand that, you’ve done enough to try to smooth the situation, thank you.  I think our cultural and language barriers are getting us into something that we weren’t trying to go to.

i just hope the priests if they are guilty will be sentenced and that Church will strengtheen, and fight against pedofila and other evil with more decision

Well, I hope the Diocese has learned its lesson…

@ncscswitch:

Hey, no sweat.  I have lost 2 jobs in NC because of religion.  I lost 1 for wearing a pentacle ring.

Dude, that wasn’t about religion, that was about bad taste.  :-P

[Guest]

I would say that wearing a dead guy nailed to boards around one’s neck is far poorer taste…

[Jermofoot]

@ncscswitch:

I would say that wearing a dead guy nailed to boards around one’s neck is far poorer taste…

Oh, I know and agree.  I just don’t like jewelry and was razzing you a bit.

It reminds me of the Bill Hick’s routine about how wearing a cross is creepy.  Like wearing an electric chair.  Or, in the case that you’d meet Jackie Kennedy, a rifle (if you liked JFK).