Subs rules (again)

[Dash_Riprock]

Yes, Ive searched, and couldnt find an answer to my question.
My understanding of the rules for subs is that they are just like any other naval unit and have an attack of 2 and D of 2.  However:
A) If a player attacks with a sub and the defender has no destroyer, they get a 1/3 chance to instantly kill an enemy ship, before the battle starts, and without allowing that ship to ever fire back, eve if it is a BB.
B) Submerse, if no destroyer is present
C) They cannot hit air units, and to make sure they dont, they have to fire before everything else each round.

However, by these rules, according to an odds simulator, the most effective thing to buy for a major naval battle is to simply mass subs and get no BBs and just one destroyer.  Am I really seeing this right? it seems like a somewhat major imbalance.

[rjclayton]

Not quite right.

• Some units fire before combat starts (ie. AA guns and BB bombardment).  These actions only happen once per combat.
• Some units fire each round, but in a pre-emptive fire stage before the other normal units fire (ie. attacking and defending subs).  Additionally, sometimes their casualties don’t get a chance to return fire (ie. if no enemy destroyer present)
• The rest of the units fire during the regular fire stage.

eg.

4 subs attack 1 sub 1 des 1 bb

First round:

Pre-emptive fire:
3 attacking subs roll 1,2,2 (3 hits)
1 defending sub rolls 1 (1 hits)

• because defender has a destroyer present, any defender casualties still get to roll defense
  attacker casualty: 1 sub
  defender casualties: 1 hit BB, 1 sub, 1 des

Remaining defender rolls: des rolls 2, bb rolls 5 (1 hit)
attacker casualties: 1 sub

Second Round:
1 sub vs. 1 bb

Pre-emptive fire:
1 attacking sub rolls 2 (1 hit)

• now since no enemy des present, casualty doesn’t get to return fire
  casualties: 1 defending BB

Final result: Attacker clears seazone with 1 sub remaining.

[Guest]

@Dash_Riprock:

My understanding of the rules for subs is that they are just like any other naval unit and have an attack of 2 and D of 2.

Sort of true (see below).  They do attack and defend on a 2.

@Dash_Riprock:

A) If a player attacks with a sub and the defender has no destroyer, they get a 1/3 chance to instantly kill an enemy ship, before the battle starts, and without allowing that ship to ever fire back, eve if it is a BB.

In the openning fire step, attacking AND defending SUBs fire first in every roound of combat.  If your force does not have a DST present, then any ship hit by the openning fore from a SUB is removed immediately before it can fire this turn.  EXCEPTION:  It still takes 2 hits to kill a Battleship.  Also do not forget that you choose you choose your own losses, SUBs do not target specific ships (except for Kaiten N/A)

@Dash_Riprock:

B) Submerse, if no destroyer is present

True, attacking AND defendig Submarines can choose to submerge after any complete round of attack IF no enemy destroyer is present.

@Dash_Riprock:

C) They cannot hit air units, and to make sure they dont, they have to fire before everything else each round.

Not sure what you mean here.  SUBs fire first because they are operating by stealth.  But they are helpless against aircraft.  SUBs CAN be taken as hits if you are attacked by aircraft, but the SUBs cannot fire at aircraft.  So, any SUB hits MUST be taken on ships not planes.  And if a SUB is attacked by air units only, it gets attacked ONCE, and then can submerge if it survives.

@Dash_Riprock:

However, by these rules, according to an odds simulator, the most effective thing to buy for a major naval battle is to simply mass subs and get no BBs and just one destroyer.  Am I really seeing this right? it seems like a somewhat major imbalance.

For a straight naval battle, SUBs are tough to beat in tersm of bang for the buck.  But massed SUBs w/o surface ships invites enemy air only attacks repeatedly on your fleet of SUBs.  Also, SUBs are worthless except for naval warfare, so do nothing to advance your ground forces.

[Dash_Riprock]

I see… thanks for the clarification.

[mojo]

hey switch i do believe if the sub hits the bb  with the kill shot, it does not get return fire.  am i correct?

[axis_roll]

@mojo:

hey switch i do believe if the sub hits the bb  with the kill shot, it does not get return fire.  am i correct?

The BB is a two hit unit.  Two hits are required to kill it.

Subs do not change this fact.

[mojo]

i’m talking about the killl shot, once it’s damaged if the sub hits again it does not return fire.

[OutsideLime]

Just to clarify though, if a sub hits a battleship with a kill shot (meaning that it was previously damaged by another hit, and the sub’s hit indeed killed it), the battleship sinks immediately like any other sea unit would and gets no casualty shot.

Example 1:, I attack your battleship with a sub.  In cycle 1, I hit you (damaging you), and you miss me with the defending fire.  In cycle 2, I hit you again, and you sink immediately without a casualty shot.

Example 2:  I attack your battleship with 2 subs, and manage to get 2 hits in cycle 1.  The first hit damages you, the second hit kills you.  Your batteship sinks immediately wihout a casualty shot.

~Josh

[mojo]

thats exactly how i see it. i believe thats correct.  but i have to admit i dislike the rule that a sub can’t get the  sneak shot on another sub.  since they both fire on operning fire.  i dislike that,  if there’s no dd they should get the sneak shot.  my buddies and i play that way.  subs can sneak on subs,  it plays good in the solomon & pearl attacks.

[OutsideLime]

Subs do get the sneak shot on other subs.  Attacking subs fire first during Opening Fire, then defending subs.  “Instant Kills” apply in whatever order the subs happen to score hits.

~Josh

[Guest]

@mojo:

i’m talking about the killl shot, once it’s damaged if the sub hits again it does not return fire.

That would be correct.  If the second hit is a sneak shot, the BB is sunk w/o returning fire.

[rjclayton]

Yes, Craig is right.  The subs both get to fire.  Opening fire casualties are simultaneous.  Regular fire casualties are simulataneous.

[OutsideLime]

I do believe you’re right.  Hm.  I’ve been playing that wrong for years.  :oops:

~Josh

[Guest]

One thing about Craig…

When it comes to the rules, I have NEVER known him to be wrong.

[rjclayton]

Outside Lime, I believe the way you are playing it is like the classic rules.  Attacking subs get first strike but defending subs don’t.  Thus in a sub-on-sub the attacker has first strike advantage in classic.  Not the case in revised.

[balungaloaf]

damn.  i’ve also been doing that wrong.  i always thought the attacking submarine would kill of the defender before the defender could fire.  i’m likewise embarresed.  how’d i miss that? ? ?  :|

[Guest]

Sub combat in Revised is the classic “torpedo in the water” action from movies like Red October and Down Periscope :-D

[Baghdaddy]

Damn.

Some instincts die hard.

I read “torpedo in the water” and my heart jumps.

One of those key phrases like “steam leak” that just kicks in some automatic responses.

[newpaintbrush]

@Baghdaddy:

Damn.

Some instincts die hard.

I read “torpedo in the water” and my heart jumps.

One of those key phrases like “steam leak” that just kicks in some automatic responses.

“We’re out of hamburgers.”

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Baghdaddy]

@newpaintbrush:

@Baghdaddy:

Damn.

Some instincts die hard.

I read “torpedo in the water” and my heart jumps.

One of those key phrases like “steam leak” that just kicks in some automatic responses.

“We’re out of hamburgers.”

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

"Three bean salad AGAIN!!!  :x  "

Morale on a submarine lives and dies by the quality of food on the mess deck.