India on turn 2?

I haven’t played a ton of AA50, maybe 20 games of it by now, but I played the original literally from the day it game out and I am an old man.  I recently realized, from someone doing it too me, that if Germany kills most of what is in Egypt and Japan goes all out for India, that Japan can take and hold India on Turn 2 and the Allies can never even think about taking it back.  The only way the allies could possibly prevent this is for the Russians to send 6 infantry to India on turn 1, they go before Japan and that would save India.  It’s the only thing that the allies can possbily do to save India and obviously the Russians can’t afford to send 6 infantry to India on turn 1.  Unless I’m missing some way of saving India, I really think this is a serious flaw in the opening setup.

India is the most important country on the map.  If it falls on turn 2 either Russia concedes on turn 4 or dies on turn 5.  The allies have nothing in this area of the world, and have no means of getting anything there other than the Russians who can’t afford to send 6 infantry on turn 1.  So there is nothing to prevent Japan from having 10-12 inf, 5 art, 6 tanks, 4-6 fighters, and a bomber within striking distance of Caucusus on turn 4.  With Turn 2 ICs in Burma and East Indies and a Turn 3 IC in India (3 tanks for 30 IPC:-) that is what Japan has to hit Caucuses with on turn 4.  They’ll have 10-12 more units within range on the following turn, and 9 per turn after that as the ICs chain forward their production each turn.  Caucusus might survive turn 4, but Russia will be dead on turn 5… especially if Germany knows the plan and is playing for it from the beginning.

India is the most important territory on the map in many ways, if Japan can just take it strong right from the beginning of the game then the Allies really don’t have much of a chance.  It’s Russia’s “back door” and if it falls on turn 2 they are going to die as quickly as they are capable of dying.  I really think this is a flaw in the opening setup, and Japan is nuts to do anything else.  I let Kwantung and the Chinese fighter province live on turn 1 to get as much to India as possbile as quickly as possible, nothing else really matters other than taking India.  It’s Japan’s primary objective in the entire war and they are able to just take it right away.  That really is a serious problem in my book.

A bid can’t really fix this because there it would have to be too high, I think the initial setup would need to be changed subtly, in some ways like only allowing two Japanese transports to be within range of India on turn two and moving the British ships from India to Africa so they can bring those 2 inf to India or Persia before they die.  India has to be able to survive until turn 2.  If the allies go all out to defend India they should be able to at hold it for at least one turn of trying, to at least delay Japan a turn and kill some of those units that have made it all the way to India.  India living just that one extra turn allows time for 2 US fighters and 4 Russian infantry to arrive and allow the allies to at least make a fight of it in India even if they will inevitably lose.  If India dies on turn 2 only Russia can try to save it, and they can’t afford too.  The allies, at the very least, need the option of delaying Japan in India if they choose to do so (and because they absolutely have to).

I know most won’t agree, but too me personally this is a game killing flaw in the 41 scenario to the point that I am not even interested in playing the 41 scenario anymore.  Maybe it is just the way I play, but I don’t see how the allies can win outside of extreme luck, or bad play from an opponent, if Japan can always hit Cauc with close to 30 units on turn 4 every game and there is absolutely nothing the allies can do about it.

@Lynxes:

30 units turn 4 seems to be over the top, but yes, Japan can do something like you’re saying and it’s something of a standard opening to the game. But if we look at it from new things in AA50 you must take into account:

1. Russia builds for 30 IPCs for several rounds and rarely falls below 25 the first five turns. That means they are much in stronger than in any earlier A&A edition.
2. Getting Africa is not very difficult for the Allies, Italy is slow to build up and by turn 3 or 4 at the latest the Italian fleet should be sunk. You shouldn’t be caught out with all three Axis powers against Caucasus as a competent Allied player, by the time Japan is in striking distance Italy shouldn’t be. And from Africa you can threaten India.
3. USA has a much stronger position in the Pacific than in AAR (see my “Those pacific builds…” thread). 4-6 fighters against Caucasus is something you can avoid if you force Japan to park fighters on carriers. If Japan ignores you, grab Phillippines, Borneo and East Indies and the Allied IPCs will be skyrocketing.

All the same, the set-up might be too much for the Allies in the end, and some people think a bid is needed for them. India, Egypt and Yunnan are all crying out for some infantry if you allow bids. Maybe those tournaments will show more of how balanced the game is?

No, you can have 26-29 units within range of Caucusus on at the end of Japan’s turn 4 if you use the transports right in sending everything there, and building ICs in Burma, East Indies, and India.  Since the allies have no means of getting anything else there by turn 2, there is nothing at all that can be done to stop Japan from doing this (other than pinning the IJN at Tokyo and forcing them to build nothing but ships).  If Japan is allowed to spend money on anything other than ships then they can have 26-29 units hitting caucuses on turn 5 every game and the allies can do nothing about it.  They can’t get enough force into Africa in time to be there, either.  There is no reason for Japan to make any opening move other than this, because it absolutely gaurentees the Axis win on turn 6 (probably turn 5).

There really needs to be a change in the opening setup to prevent this.  A bid doesn’t save India and it would suck if the US had no choice but to just force stand-off shipbuilding contest every game.

The balance with India is clearly off.  The allies should at least be capable of putting up a fight for it and as it stands now only Russia can even try to help because it happens on turn 2.  Japan shouldn’t have a chance at India until turn 3, after the allies have had time to get things there to at least put up a fight for it and delay Japan for at least 1 turn from when they arrive, 2 turns from when they currently fall.  Russia can afford to send 2 inf per turn.  If the fighter in Epypt lives it can also be in India on turn 2.  2 US fighters and 2-4 more Russian inf can arrive on turn 3.  The simplest fix, too me, seems to be to move the British DD and Trans to Africa where it can bring 2 inf to India before it dies, and change Japan’s opening setup so that only 2 transports can be within range of India on turn 2.  This would give the allies the one turn they need to at least put up a fight for India and prevent 26+ units attacking Caucusus on turn 5 like clockwork, every single game, because it is impossible for the allies to do anything about it.

Japan should be able to take but not hold India on turn 3 if the Allies have defended it, hold it if the allies have not defended it.  Just rolling by India like it was nothing as part of their opening move really is a big problem.

I see your points.  In another thread I described how to force Japan into a naval arms race with the US and was already thinking that in AA50 with India falling on turn 2 the US doesn’t have a choice anymore and must do this.  But that makes for a boring game, always being forced to do the same thing or lose on turn 4.

@Subotai:

@ Kavik Kang, how high bid do you think allies should get then? 10 ipc or more? I also assume we’re talking ADS setting.

I don’t think it can be fixed with a bid, the Allies are a long, long way from being able to put up any kind of fight at all for India and with nothing in their way it’s just simple math that 26-29 Japanese units are going to hit Caucusus on turn 5.  There needs to be a fight for India, not just Japan waving as they pass through on turn 2.

@Subotai:

@Kavik:

I don’t think it can be fixed with a bid, the Allies are a long, long way from being able to put up any kind of fight at all for India and with nothing in their way it’s just simple math that 26-29 Japanese units are going to hit Caucusus on turn 5.  There needs to be a fight for India, not just Japan waving as they pass through on turn 2.

Well, then I suggest I take allies with 30 ipc, one unit pr. TT, NOs and no tech. You can decide if we’re playing LL or ADS.

I see you in the unstable lobby pretty soon   :-D :-) 8-) :lol:

But then you will build things to hold India far too well, which is why it can’t be fixed with a bid.  The balance is simply off in India.  I have a game saved now at the end of Japan’s turn 3 with turn 3 builds placed.  With turn 3 builds placed, this is the situation in India at the end of Japan’s turn 3.  And since the Allies can do nothing in this area of the world this early in the game, Japan can just do this every game if they want.  You tell me how the allies survive this Japanese position at the end of turn 3.

India: 10 inf, 1 art, 1 tanks, 1 fighter,  newly built IC
SZ 35: 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 2 transports (lost 2 fighters round 1 so we are actually a fighter short here with 4 out on the carriers)

Burma: 2 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 bomber, IC built on turn 2
SZ 37: 2 transports

East Indies: 2 inf, 2 tank
SZ 38: 2 trans

SZ 51: 2 carriers, 4 fighters, 1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer

SZ 62: 1 transport, 1 sub

There are 5 inf in China and I own all but Chinghai, ready to take next turn with 3 inf.

Turn 1 Build: 2 transports

Turn 2 Build: 2 IC (East Indies and Burma), 1 destroyer

Turn 3 Build: 1 IC (India), 3 tanks, 2 inf, 1 bomber, 1 sub

Japan can build 9 units per turn with the 3 ICs.  Tanks built in Inida reach Cauc and bomber built in Burma reach Cauc on the first turn after they are built.  We also have 6 transports and the 2 inf/2 tank per turn built in East Indies arrive in Persia the turn after they are built every turn due to the 4 transports dedicated to making that happen.  So an additional 9 units each and every turn hit Caucusus because this chain is already established when you strike due to the turn 3 pause/consolidation, but it is very unlikely that there was any way it survived the initial attack on turn 5 and really these follow up units are for taking Moscow.  If the German player was aware of this plan and spent the first 4 turns preparing for it instead of trying to take Moscow, then Russia will almost certainly die on turn 5 every game.  Germany will be stronger playing for the turn 5 nuclear weapon Japan will set off instead of sparring with Russia and risking units.  Germany can focus on the west, in a small way, for the first 4 turns just wating for the killing blow to Russia to arrive in Persia.  It’s really bad once you start thinking about what this allows Germany to do.  I’d certainly suggest 3 subs any time the British fleet leaves range of the bay, sine you can afford it, the British have a hard time coming back with 3 subs to protect German planes from hits.

This is what lands moves into Persia on turn 4, Caucusus on turn 5, and, assuming Germany doesn’t do it first, Moscow on turn 6…

14 Inf
2 Art
7 Tanks
3 fighters (would be four if Japan only lost 1 on turn 1 instead of losing 2)
3 bombers

Three of the tanks and two of the bombers are not currently on the map, but get built within range to hit Caucusus on turn 5 at India and Burma.  This is 29 units into Caucusus on Turn 5.  Japan can do this every game if they feel like it and the allies can do nothing to stop them.  Even the US building a fleet could be ignored until after this force was built because it happens so early with India falling on turn 2.  And if you hadn’t noticed, I even added 2 ships to the fleet while doing this and bombers are also very useful against fleets… you don’t even ignore the Americans in doing this!  I don’t see how the game works when Japan can do this every time with nothing in their way to stop them.  India is very important, it can’t fall for certain on turn 2 as part of Japan’s opening move.

@DarthMaximus:

The problem with this assumption is I see no Allied resistance at all.

What if Russia stacked Bury on R1?
Is Japan still going all out for Ind.

What if UK stacks Per instead and Russia stacks Cauc?
Per can be deadzoned.  Making a J move to Per susceptible to a strafe from Russia via Inf in Cauc and arm from anywhere in range.

In 4 turns Russia places about 40 units alone.

What if UK/US shuck to Arch?
It is only 2 turns from UK to Mos.  3 turns from Ecan to Mos.

What if Fra falls to UK or US on turn 3, 4, or 5?
Puts Ger in quite a situation.

What if Ita falls to US on turn 3, 4 or 5?

My point is, there are plenty of things the Allies can do.  Yes reinforcing India isn’t easy, but the Allies will not automatically lose the game if UK retreats from Ind on UK 1 or UK 2.

This is the entire problem, there is absolutely nothing the allies can do if Japan goes all out for Caucsus from their opening move.  Even if the US goes full bore at Japan, Japan still has time to hit Cauc with 25-30 units (varying only by the loses incurred running over what little resistance stands in your way) on turn 5.  They US can’t seriously threaten Japan until turn 3, and that initial threat can be ignored for the first turn considering our whole navy except one carrier is already there defending the pacifc, which allows Japan to get this huge force into Cauc and then turn to face the US, if they are even there, on turn 5 as that force does it’s job in Cauc.  As long as the US is not seriously, very seriously considering the Pac IJN on turn 4 was already 4 Fig, 2 CV, 1 CC, 1 CA, 1 DD, and Sub in the position I wound up in at the end of turn 3 that I posted above, Japan can then just keep putting 9 units every turn into persia.

It’s really the only opening anyone should be doing with Japan, slam 28 units into Cauc on turn 5 then either turn to face US or continue funneling in 9 units every turn to Persia if the US isn’t spending all of their money in the Pacific.  I don’t see how the Axis can lose considering that there is nothing in Japan’s way of doing this.  A bid won’t solve it because it is such a massive force.  It’s about 23 or 24 units that hit Persia on turn 4… what exactly were you planning on having done about that before the end of turn 3?  Something like 12 or 14 had units hit India on turn 2…  There is nothing in the way, and only Russia could even slow it down… by sending 6 infantry to India on turn 1.  They obviously can’t do that, and it’s not worth it anyway because all it will do is slow it down by 1 turn and make the turn 6 hit on Cauc all the more powerful for it in the end.  Any pressure from the US won’t happen until the initial force is already on it’s way.

A bid can’t fix this.  It’s way too much.  The initital setup needs to be changed so that no more than 2 transports can reach India on turn 2, and I would also move the destroyer and transport from India to Africa.  That give the UK player the option of staying there for a SA IC, or getting those inf to either Eygpt or India (India would be a good idea:-).  That navy still dies every game, just on turn 2 instead of turn 1.  It also allows those to inf to defend India while putting them 1 turn away so they can’t attack from India on turn 1.  I think with those changes Russia sends two Inf, UK brings the inf from Africa… and India becomes a place where Japan can still steamroll, but only if the Allies let them.

I really like AA50 a lot, which is why I bothered coming to the forum to bring this up.  If you really look at the end of turn 3 position in the post above, and realize that there is nothing in the way or that can be in the way and they can be in this position every game if they want, then you see why the Allies need to be able to put up a better fight for India.  It should be possbile for it to fall on turn 3, but not on turn 2 as an extension of Japan’s opening move.  As long as Japan can do this, the Allies can really never win.  Russia will die on turn 5 or 6, maybe 7 they really can hold out sometimes, every game.  Certain territories are “lynchpins” and India is the best example among them.  I, personally, think it is the most important one on the map.  Even more than Caucusus because it keeps Cauc alive, Cauc is what dies if India falls.  It’s the Allies back door, it can’t go down for good turn 2 every game or the game won’t work.  But I am not ripping on the game, I am trying to help by pointing this out.