Is Japan a Monster? [Economic Breakdown]

There’s lots of things to respond to so here goes.

@atarihuana:

but can us sink the italian fleet and close the suez quickly enough? jap fleet will!! be in the med by turn 4! the idea of 2 BB 3 CA 3 loaded AC  in the med plus jap ICs in India , FIC, possibly burma or eastindies scares me. why? UK income will be at 12 + whats left of africa which wont be much with japan in the med. so you are basically setting up a huge 1-2 punch ( france/ germany)?. this should get playtested :D.

Yes, you should be able to close the canal in rds 2, 3 and beyond.  From Per you can close it in rds 2 and 3 with the UK and then from rd 4 on, you can close it from Lib to Egy with UK/US.  Typically the Italian fleet is sunk in rds 3 or 4 at the latest.  In a KG(I)F the UK’s income should rarely if ever be below 22-23.  Reclaiming Afr is a top priority, and the Axis never gain full control, it is just to hard to compete with multiple heavy Allied landings in Alg.  I also do not think it is that easy to get a massive Japanese fleet into the Med.
You’d almost have to bee-line directly for it and that leaves no defense in Sz 62.  Remember the US does have a DD and AC in the Pac to start and 3-4 ftrs, 2 boms, so it is not that hard to fake an Atlantic move then come back to Sz 56 on US 2 or 3.  The point here is the Japanese player cannot assume the US won’t do anything in the Pac.

@Pin:

So far we are pretty confident that the US must go Pacific mainly, the goal of this is not to kill the japanese fleet, but force it to stay together so they cant scatter all around the pacific, play cat and mouse, spread out subs in a lot of different sea zones etc, maintain the pacific NO of USA. while this is ongoing UK starts off making sure his fleet can sustain and start moving troops for africa + killing the Italian fleet as fast as possible, the US uses the 2 transports of EUS to shuffle 4 units ECAN to Marocco every turn. This combined with clever use of the the US pacific fleet (and the transport 41) keeps japan and Italy from totally breaking the UK economy.

This lite shuck (4 US inf per turn) while putting the rest of your resources into the Pac does work quite nicely.  I’ve used this as well.

@Unknown:

Japan’s income in this game may be proportional to what it was in previous editions, as you demonstrated, but how long will it enjoy 60-70+ IPC cashouts? Each turn Germany and Italy can hold out is another turn that Japan rakes in the big bucks. So how does this compare to previous editions? I’m not sure, but my guess is that the european axis can hold out longer in this game. Also consider that Japan’s income explodes much quicker in this game than previous ones due to the increase in IPCs in the pacific and of course, NOs. All those turns of high cash outs translate into more and more Jap units on the board, units which the Allies will have to deal with at some point.

But Japan also starts out weaker with 17 ipc in turn 1 and has to travel farther to get to Mos.  Yes, Japan’s income of 60-65 is a lot of units, but those units won’t hit the front lines for another 4-5 turns.  So if Japan earns 60 in rd 3-4, the Allies don’t need to worry about those units until rd 7-8.  That is a ton of time for the Allies to cripple Italy and help Mos against Germany.
Off the top of my head I would say if the Allies have crippled Italy (only 9-12 ipc) and are able to land heavy in Kar via trns by rd 6 and Germany doesn’t have Cauc you are in great shape b/c the Allies can drop 16 units per turn into Kar from then on.  They can also be used to help against Japan in an emergency, like having your tanks move to Mos for extra defense.

@Funcioneta:

I think KGF is not even possible of do if Japan launchs a massive attack against America. They start with 5 trannies, can buy 2 more round 1 and probably more round 2. With so much trannies, after taking Pacific islands, Japan can send all of them loaded to a combo of sea zones (Hawaii sz and others) threatening Alaska, Wcan and WUSA in such manner USA cannot defend the three and possibily only WUSA, deadzoning wcan. Then, all Japan have to do is land the massive stack in Alaska and trading Wcan, setting a 4 x 4 chain of trannies and maybe a Alaska IC. This will, at least, halt USA in their continent, unable of aiding Africa or Europe (and Africa will be lost to italians in many KGF games were UK fails to build saf IC).

By the time this occurs Afr and the Italian fleet should be in the process of being cleared, so at this point the US can freely go after or defend against Japan.  A proper US shuck starts in Wus on turn 1 anyway and slowly builds up to 8-10 units (for 4-5 trns to go to Alg).  I just don’t think that it is an inviting target for Japan, to see 8 inf, 2 arm in Ecan, 8 inf, 2 arm in Wcan, 8 inf, 2 arm in Wus.  So the US pulls back one turn and stacks 2 inf, 2 arm in Ecan, 14 inf in Wcan, 8 inf, 4 arm in Wus.  Is this a good target for Japan?

@Funcioneta:

The bad news are that it was possible in Revised were Japan had much less income (after round 3) and much less starting trannies

The worst news are that in AA50 soviets cannot annoy Japan with token forces (as they did in Revised) because of larger distances and because Japan has so much income that they can still, while doing the Polar Express, send more guys to soviets and Africa than in Revised

But supply lines are longer in AA50.
The Soviets can annoy Japan you just wait until Novo or the last China territory, where you can threaten with your stack of Russian armor in Mos and Cauc.  Russia has about 10 inf out East that can be reatreated and it is definitely possible to get Russia near 10 tanks by round 6-7.  Sometimes the threat of attack is all you need.

@Funcioneta:

The horrible news are that western axis can easily beat by economy the UK+USSR combo even without Japan’s aid or at the very least equal them, leading anyway to axis economic victory in long run because Japan colects more than USA

This is not true.  Remember the US is aiding UK and Russia early.  Russia routinely earns 30+ for the first 3-4 rds at least.  UK will earn between 24-30 and US can contribute 12-24 ipc (4 to 8 inf per turn).  In a KGF, Italy only gets 1-3 turns of a good income after that they are stuck at ~9-12.  UK and Russia most definitely can compete with Germany and Italy.

@Lynxes:

So, the two major strats for the Allies I think will be:
KIF= all of US resources and most of UK goes vs. Africa and Italy, and UK devotes enough to ward off the fall of Karelia. UK builds Saf IC.
Balanced KIF= US resources are divided between the above objective and building up a fleet in the Pacific that offensively distracts Japan and buys the Allies time to more effectively put the KIF strategy into place. UK as above.

I agree with this.  I think the Allies can throw everything they have at Afr and the Italian fleet early with the intiention to kill the fleet and cripple Italy by rd 4.  After this the US has the freedom to confront Japan in the Pac if it wishes or just continue and try to actually take Rome or Berlin.

@Lynxes:

/bugoo

In the '41 scenario, UK helps against Japan by sending troops over the Middle East to protect Caucasus, by landings in Algeria, builds in South Africa IC, or both.

YES!!!
Units that land in Alg (UK and/or US) in Rd 2, 3, 4 reach Trj in rds 5, 6, 7.  Meaning you can cut off Japan’s Southern route.  UK attacks/US finishes off.

@Lynxes:

You need a carrier and some auxiliary ships afloat off the West coast as a kernel of your Pacific fleet to have any chance of challenging Japan. (All this assuming abandoning the Pacific ocean is not your strategy.)

I will abandon, or at least make it look that way.  On US 1 the AC/DD either cover the UK trn (1 inf, 1 rt) and dd fleeing Aus or go to Sz 20 if it is safe from J air.

I try to buy lots of ftrs so if I do have to go Pac I can just buy 1-2 AC with DD cover b/c I already have the ftrs available to land.

A good counter (or deterent) to an early aggressive J fleet move toward the US is the early UK stack in Per.  Ind can be taken on J2, but UK has the ability to counter for 1-3 turns if Japan is only moving 1-2 inf there.  This usually forces Japan to make the full commitment and at least project strength with its AC/ftrs, buying the US the time it needs to set up in the Atlantic (rds 1-3).

It is not that easy for Japan to get significant ground forces to Northern Russia, thru China, to India, and to Aus early on.  So you are usually only dealing with stacks of 2-3 inf for any particular area.  These can be countered by consolidated UK stacks in Per and a Russian stack in Novo (could move into China as needed).

But how early can you do that?
Japan also has build limit of 8, so at some point you’ll need at least 2 ICs.  Where do those get placed and when?

12-14 units is 36-42 ipc which is more than half J’s income and that is if they buy inf only.

I like a 2 trn J1 buy, but that is not enough to threaten the US early on, considering Japan still has to send at least 1 trn to Aus.  Is Japan threatening India on J2?

The cost of 2 ICs and say 4 trns is 58 ipc.  That is essentially all of J1 cash (17) and J2 (~40-42 ipc) spent on non-attacking, non-territory holding units.

I understand China is weak, but they aren’t that weak that they won’t chew up the initial burst of Japanese Asia units, esp when reinforced by a few Russians.

How do you push through India/Per with enough force to prevent a counter from the Allies in Cauc?

You also have to contend with Russia as you approach Novo and Russia can lose Bury, Sfe, Stc, Eve and Yak but make up for it with Fin and Nor.  Russia routinely earns mid 30’s to 40’s in a KGF type game.

I just thought of this, which may help, I’m currently playing a KGF game and here is the cash earned earned so far.

(Cash on hand at the end of each rd)
Country:  Rd 1 - Rd 2 - Rd 3 - Rd 4

Ger:  45 - 43 - 38- 39
Jap:  42 - 55 - 60 - 65
Ita:  17 - 19 - 12 - 9

Tot:  104 - 117 - 110 - 113

Rus:  34 - 39 - 49 - 48
UK:  40 - 29 - 26 - 31
US:  48 - 48 - 48 - 54

Tot:  122 - 116 - 123 - 133

Now, in this game Japan is going after Moscow, Russia is holding her own, so I don’t see how Russia couldn’t hold her own if Japan is committing ~ 40 ipc to Ala/Wcan.  The Allies can earn as much or more then the Axis in each rd.

Also, if the argument is the US needs to spend on the Pac, then I don’t see much difference in spending the 40-48 ipc on ground troops to fight in Ala/Wcan compared to the trns/subs/dd etc plus ground troops to fight at Sea and take islands.  At least if you are fighting in Ala/Wcan you didn’t have to waste money on ships and you got to aid Europe for 3-4 turns.

That’s not entirely true.  While they can kill most of China’s units on J1 it still takes 3 turns to get through all of China.  The point is if Japan sends its 9 inf after China in round 1 (which is should), it will likely lose 3.  1 inf lost in 3 or 4 ter.  I forget off hand how many they can attack.  But 3 inf vs. 1 inf is a should win battle, but odds are decent, esp if it goes multiple rds to lose 1 inf.  So Japan is down to 6 inf, and China is at 3 (they’ll likely get to place 2 on US-Chi 1).  China can retreat and/or picket another 2-3 ter.  I like to retreat all inf but it doesn’t matter.  The point is by time Japan gets its initial inf through China (on J3) they are down to 3-5 inf.  THIS IS COUNTERABLE BY RUSSIA, who retreated it’s 9 Eastern inf back to Novo.  Goodbye J inf and welcome back China.  This is why Japan needs a steady flow of inf behind the initial thrust.  The 9 starting inf are enough to clear and kill China but not nearly enough to enter Kaz/Novo.  Russia will eat them alive.  Japanese reinforcements need to land (or be placed at an IC) in Asia in Rd 2 otherwise there is a gap in Japan’s defense.

I’m not arguing that China can’t be killed or that they are somehow strong, I’m just saying that they can cut down Japan’s starting inf.

Here’s another likely scenerio.  Japan is doing its normal damage to China and China retreats/places its last inf in Chi (last China ter) boarding Novo.  Now Russia takes the inf that started in Yak/Stc/Bury (when avail) retreats to Novo then reinforces the China inf in Chi.  So you end up with a mixed stack of 8 inf.  Can 6 Jap inf win?  No.  They need ftr help.  Well they may not have the ftrs if they are off taking Aus or in Sz 62, or off the coast of Ind, or harassing HI or Ala.

I think people assume that Japan just walks through Asia, and yes that is true to an extent, but it doesn’t mean they don’t run into resistance as they approach Mos or Persia.  Russia with 2-3 inf out East isn’t strong, but if they put all those inf into Novo or Kaz and all of a sudden have 10 inf, then that is a different story.

Yes, I agree China is essentially a non-entity by J2, but in the case you describe (China with 3 inf), they should not split those up and  they should be retreating them to Chi.  This way Russia can reinforce, if they deem they have some of the initial Eastern inf to spare.  Now I understand China will not be getting more inf but if Russia reinforces with 3-4 inf, now you have a stack of 7 inf.  Japan needs ftrs in range to kill that stack, which they may or may not be depending on Japs Pac moves which brings me to this…

This little scenerio was in response to a Jap planned assualt/harassing on Ala/Wcan and potential aggressive moves against the US to stop/interupt the US shuck in KGF.

Now if you play Japan and dash to Mos then you’re right, the Allies have to use other counters, but my point is Japan cannot assume its initial inf and J1 landings will be enough to get through all of China and India because they won’t.  Check that, they may be enough to get through, but they won’t be enough to even remotely threaten Moscow.  The loss of all the China territories does nothing to weaken Russia, it doesn’t even weaken the US at all, it just gives Japan some extra ipcs.  Enough to buy 3 more inf, big deal considering they need at least 2 ICs to over take Russia’s production (assume Kar is lost briefly to Ger at some point).

If you are reinforcing Asia with a decent amount of troops on J2/J3 then I completely agree with you and all other strong J players.

BUT it is when Japan goes after essentially every island by J2 (including HI, Ngu and/or Sol) where they can run into trouble against an Allied Strategic Retreat Strategy.

@Cmdr:

…Japan is earning so much.

Irrelevant to killing the initial China resistance. 
Japan earning 42+, 50+ on J2, J3 doesn’t reach Chi until J5, J6.
At best, you’ll get to put your initial 17 ipc into play (I like the 2 trn 1 inf buy).  By then China did its job, it cut the intial J inf stack in half or more which gives Russia the ability to handle the J survivors for another couple of rds, until the massive reinforcements arrive in Rd 6,7, etc. from the high J incomes that start from rd 2 on.

Russia can handle stacks of 2-3 J inf, but they can’t handle stacks of 6-7+, so if China can whittle down the initial stack to 3-5 inf or less then that is a huge success for the Allies, esp if their is a gap of very few reinforcements for a turn or 2.