Building Italian fleet - is there a point?

I think there are basically 3 really good options for what to buy on I1:

1. 1 fighter
2. 1 transport, 1 infantry
3. nothing; save 10 IPC

My standard has been to buy the fighter. As long as Germany attacks Egypt (with the bomber), you can be reasonably sure that Italy will get collect both NOs on their first turn, giving them 21-23. So you don’t need to save for the carrier on I2, you’ll have the cash. With the fighter buy, you’ll have the carrier loaded as soon as its built, instead of having to “borrow” a fighter from Germany. Plus you can use the second fighter on I2 if need be.

The trans + inf buy is my preferred one, since it gets land units into Africa as quickly as possible. But it depends on what the UK does on their turn. If they have bombers, I’d rather not split my fleet up to protect the transport, so I wouldn’t buy it in this case since the fleet will be in sz15 at the end of I1. However, I find that often the UK loses its bomber on their first turn when they clear out the German Baltic fleet (so they can land both fighters on a carrier). In this case, as long as the Egyptian fighter isn’t still hanging around, nothing will be in range of the transport so you can go ahead and buy it without worry.

Lastly, saving your income could be good if the fleet is being threatened by bombers and you want to plop down multiple ships at once for protection when you return to sz14.

If Itlay has no navy they have no IPC’s. Africa is lost and enemy warships will soon patrol the Med. The fleet is a must but never leave the Med. or its death is certain……unless of course there’s a chance to take London, but that doesn’t happen often. My first priority with Italy is to always build a strong navy in order to be a factor throughout the game. In Revised the the German battleship in the Med. was a key unit, in Anniversary they give you an even stronger naval presence - use it.

my last FTF game, italy pimped up ts navy to no effect. it was a long strategic game, neither side taking big risks. in games like this i feel its just a waste of IPCs. because USA/UK can always and will allways outprouduce any western axis naval attempts. this might change if USA is pacific only. then an Italian fleet which UK has to sink alone could turn out to be a combined threat with a strong german luftwaffe in france.

the best use for italian navy  ive found is either a well-timed  attack on some allied sz12 fleet , so that luftwaffe can take out leftovers, or on a rare occasion it prooved quite useful in Yellow Sea, after an US  hulk smash :D

Should the I-Ties build 2 carriers for deffese and be supplied extra fighters form Japan and or germany. A 2 AC 1 BB 2-3 CR fleet with 2 trasports in the Meditreainan with acess to the Indian ocean would help alot and if the Japanesse have 5 or more carriers the should keep one in the Indian to reinforce the I-Ties if needed.

2 ac for italy? id always  prefer  6 inf, 2arm over 2 ac …

I also support a carrier purchase for Italy.  While yes the Western Allies can build more ships and eventually overwhelm the Italian navy, the purchase of the carrier gives Italy some more time in Africa where it’s money and NO’s are and it forces the W. Allies TO make the investment in the additional forces needed to overwhelm the Italian navy.

I prefer destroyers/subs as I feel the best way to keep the allies away from africa is to be able to destroy there fleet if they try it using italy to soften them up and the germans to finish the job if needed.  By then the Japs can have an AC+ there to defend a rebuild or the already built trannies if needed.

In my first game of AA50, I built 1 tran and 1 inf for italy.  the next turn, i built a destroyer.  Germany actually cut and run from africa, leaving my 2 inf to get smashed by england from egypt, and the US hit Operation Torch all on round 1.  Yet, the units i landed w/ ship and air support held off successive waves of US and British forces.

Given the fact that the allies had bad leadership, they were still ubber aggressive on the KGF strategy.  What eventually helped me win North Africa w/o NOs (the game ended in Moscow before African conquest) was my naval supremacy in the Med.  Yes, UK eventually got pissed enough to take his whole fleet and smash mine, thus I never built that carrier I was saving for, but NorAf was mine!

The game was pretty crazy.  Germany threw everything at Russia, even letting Paris get liberated twice in the game.  Of course, Germany always took it back next turn, with no real loss in IPC, only gains for allies.

Japan as in all KGF games absorbed Asia.

My point w/ Italy is that a good fleet gives it operational maneuver.  Even with inferior land forces, Italy decides when and where it wants to fight in North Africa.

Honestly an Italian fleet is a very necessary thing to build for without it the Allies can invade Africa without fear thus cutting Italy off at the knees.  I started out with the extra transport on I2 so I could threaten Russia or dump troops in Libya when the Allies show up, but I’m starting to think a CV on I2 is a better way to go.  Save just enough IPC’s so that your I2 purchase is a Carrier and for god sakes keep that fighter alive to land on it.  After that continue to build up the fleet with DD’s and SS’s as necessary while securing Africa and helping the Germans with Garrison duty in France.  This gives the Germans more troops to send East, keeps Africa longer to keep UK poor, and forces the Allies to build a fleet to come after Italy with which is expensive.  Each turn the Allies are focused on your fleet is one less turn of production against the Germans which they need for the first couple turns.

If this can be achieved then all you have to do is worry about Germany’s assualt on Russia and Japans ability to get through India and then also on to Russia.  You need the fleet to hold Africa and Germany needs your fleet to keep the Allies busy so for god’s sake build ships and pray for a decent German player backing you up.

Why not just send a Jap carrier over there?  It can get there by turn 3, plus build Navy as needed where Italy is kind of straped for cash.

being a big fan og italian fleet myself i thought i wanted to share an experience from my last game. The US was so fortunate to avhieve heavy bombers (and long range aircraft two rounds later), but from an italian perspective heavy bombers is bad…VERY bad. I you play against US and they get heavy bombers, I would not recomend buying more fleet - not even carriers as they benefit for allies is too big if you can kill the italian movement by destroying their fleet.

Just finished a multiplayer game with Ogrebait and Yasha for teamates.  I think the Italian fleet staying strong in the Med made all the difference.  We really and truly needed the fleet as the Allies came hard and strong for Africa.

Germany and Japan both lended fighters and support when needed but it was the Italian navy that made a huge difference.  The Allies got bogged down and once Caucasus was taken it was only a matter of time before Russia ran out of options.

If the Allies have built up a fleet in SZ12 that looks ready to smash the Italians, I highly recommend that Italy push a lone DD into SZ13 and to keep dropping ships in the water.  I’ve seen it save the Italian fleet more than once.

I am of the very strong opinion that Italy should not build a fleet unless very specific situations call for it.  There may be a need for a well placed destroyer tranny, or sub for example.  Like I said Japan can send a fully loaded carrier over there in 3 turns and still have money to compensate for the loss of navy if it needs to.  This makes a poor Italy more focused on building much more important (and more cost effective) ground units.  Other than that the only reason Italy would be building something is if it is already rich, and if that’s the case the game is probably looking very bright for the Axis  or very out of the ordinary game anyway.

What happens if that Italian fleet is destroyed before a Japanese CV arrives?  No way to use those ground units in Africa now where Italy needs to be making money and just as importantly, costing the UK IPCs.  Your stuck with 2 infantry and an artillery a turn to reinforce france with or more likely attempt to hold Italy with since there is no fleet to cover you against a landing.

Playing as the Allies, I would take full advantage of a weak Italian fleet as soon as possible.

An Italian fleet is a great investment.  Fleets are better on the defensive in general with the exception of subs, so getting a CV and extra fighter into SZ14 is a top priority for Italy with me.

@bongaroo:

What happens if that Italian fleet is destroyed before a Japanese CV arrives?  No way to use those ground units in Africa now where Italy needs to be making money and just as importantly, costing the UK IPCs.  Your stuck with 2 infantry and an artillery a turn to reinforce france with or more likely attempt to hold Italy with since there is no fleet to cover you against a landing.

Playing as the Allies, I would take full advantage of a weak Italian fleet as soon as possible.

An Italian fleet is a great investment.  Fleets are better on the defensive in general with the exception of subs, so getting a CV and extra fighter into SZ14 is a top priority for Italy with me.

How are you going to sink the allied fleet by turn 3? If it is on t1 it is before Italy can do anything anyway so that is a moot point.  If it is T2 then Britain bought only airforce which would mean that is one less turn Germany has to worry about the Brits and can focus more on Russia.  America only has 2 bombers so that’s not going to do anything. If it is T3 is still has to be sunk by Britain as the Jap carrier would be there by America’s turn.  Not only that you can probably move the navy to the black sea or something to keep them out of harms way for 1 turn. There is no way Britain can sink the Italian navy with ships and have a sustainable invasion force to drop in Europe. You are putting youself out of place for no good reason and giving Germany an easier time to kill Russia.  The more the Allies screw around in the Med/Africa the more time the Axis has to kill Russia.

Plus if Italy builds a fleet the Allies can just choose to ignore it.  Maybe send in an American suicide Tranny or 2 to get units in Africa.  If they did then Italy just wasted money for no good reason.  I could however see the point of a second transport (maybe even a third) so one can double bombard the cauc to oblivion. Other than that I would only build navel units on special occasion.

And fleets are not better on defense than Infantry.  1 Infantry unit costs 3 ans defends at 2, 1 destroyer costs 8 and defends at 2.

The problem with sending a Japanese CV to cover the Italian fleet is that the Allies move in between Japan and Italy(UK after Japan and the US after Italy). If you need to move the fleet to a different sea zone for any reason, either the US or UK will be able to hit one of the isolated fleets while they are in transition.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t send the Japanese CV because of that, I’m just saying that’s what you should be concerned with.

@dondoolee:

And fleets are not better on defense than Infantry.  1 Infantry unit costs 3 ans defends at 2, 1 destroyer costs 8 and defends at 2.

I was referring to naval combat.  Not to the best unit for defense.

CVs are better on the defensive and so are any planes riding on them.  Also, in Italy’s case specifically, on defense you’ll be facing either the US, or the UK one at a time.  On the attack your facing them combined in SZ12 more than likely.

Italy needs a fleet and money spent on dropping more boats in the water to keep boots moving into Africa is a sound plan in my book.

@U-505:

The problem with sending a Japanese CV to cover the Italian fleet is that the Allies move in between Japan and Italy(UK after Japan and the US after Italy). If you need to move the fleet to a different sea zone for any reason, either the US or UK will be able to hit one of the isolated fleets while they are in transition.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t send the Japanese CV because of that, I’m just saying that’s what you should be concerned with.

I agree 101% the main problem is keeping the navy together, however there should be enough of a tipoff to when you can and can not move the navies due it taking a couple of turns for the allies to reach the Med.

Now look at what happens if Italy builds a carrier.

What does the carrier do, it costs 14 IPC’s to build from a 10 IPC country.  That’s 1 full turn of unproductivity, on top of that what does the carrier do?  It doesn’t attack, it can establish no zone of control,how much is this going to help?  If I’m the axis I want to blow s*it up!  Leave the pure defensive stuff for those sissy allies.  I just spent 14 dollars from a 10 dollar country that doesnt help me attack, I can still only send 2 units to Africa, and now I am short ground units.  On top of which a carrier in the Med doesn’t do much to extend any useful range for the Italian fighter.  If you use Jap or Ger fighters this makes a carrier with 2 planes that just sits there.  If the allies ignore it you just wasted 14 dollars something that does nothing.  Essentialy you are in danger of buying something more expensive than a destroyer and less useful due to no attack power.  Why is the Japanese carrier better than this?  Because it is free and the airplanes on that carrier can be useful if Japan decides to pick a little bit on Africa. And for those who want to buy a carrier and an airplane, congrats you just spent 24 IPC’s on units that can’t take or hold land from a 10 IPC country and you can still only funnel 2 troops at a time to Africa/ Russia assuming you have any ground troops after going hog wild on a defensive navy.

Cruisers are almost just as useless, but at least they can attack (and you can still attack w/the Ita plane too).  Battleships are just too pricy to be usefull, and submarines are gimmicky and would probably warrent their own topic of when and when not to use subs (though they are cheap cannon fodder in the right situation).  If you insist on an Italian capital ship the destroyer may be the best option, but I still don’t see the use of it with Italy’s ltd funds.

Look at the Transport ship though, this is the only ship I could see being profitable.  It activates another ship bombartment, and it gives you increases threat an flexability, plus you may save a little money by not purchasing tanks to rush to the Eastern Front by just using transports to shuttle inf/art.  This is the only real viable navel option I see, a boat that is cheap and poses a real threat, that’s what the Axis have to look,at especially cash straped Italy.

You also have to figure, if Germany can build a few extra planes (and maybe even a bomber) this in a way is providing a defense to your ships, this is helped even more if you have a Jap carrier their (If you feel protecting the Italian fleet is that important and that much in peril).

Another important thing to look at, is that time is not on the Axis’ side.  Time spent building purley defensive units is slowing you down.  The allies essentially HAVE to build unproductive units.  Everytime the US sends a tranny with 2 units on it it wastes 7IPC’s.  They also have to spend money on destroyers, carriers, etc in the first few turns.  All things that can’t attack or take land, this is to good an opportunity to be as aggresive as possible in the most cost effective way possible.

Finally, and most importantly how important is the Italian fleet to the Allied army?  If it was their top priority, it would be sunk by turn 2 without you even getting to use it.  Britain could simply build 3 bombers on T1 (bringing the total to 4) and has a good chance of having an extra fighter from Egy the most Italy can have in defense is 1 Bat, 2 cru, 1 Des.  Perhaps America would build the convoy fleet the first turn.  If the Italian navy really is that important, it will not get a chance to survive.

@bongaroo:

@dondoolee:

And fleets are not better on defense than Infantry.  1 Infantry unit costs 3 ans defends at 2, 1 destroyer costs 8 and defends at 2.

I was referring to naval combat.  Not to the best unit for defense.

CVs are better on the defensive and so are any planes riding on them.  Also, in Italy’s case specifically, on defense you’ll be facing either the US, or the UK one at a time.  On the attack your facing them combined in SZ12 more than likely.

Italy needs a fleet and money spent on dropping more boats in the water to keep boots moving into Africa is a sound plan in my book.

Still if you want to defend Italy, 3 inf and 1 tank is better than spending 14 IPC’s for a carrier defending.  You get more bang for your buck using ground units to defend, plus you can use them to take land if they survive.  But you can get “free” defense from Japan, a German airforce to help you out, PLUS there is a decent chance you can get 1-3 surviving German subs to combine with your navy all at no cost to Italy.

@dondoolee:

@U-505:

The problem with sending a Japanese CV to cover the Italian fleet is that the Allies move in between Japan and Italy(UK after Japan and the US after Italy). If you need to move the fleet to a different sea zone for any reason, either the US or UK will be able to hit one of the isolated fleets while they are in transition.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t send the Japanese CV because of that, I’m just saying that’s what you should be concerned with.

I agree 101% the main problem is keeping the navy together, however there should be enough of a tipoff to when you can and can not move the navies due it taking a couple of turns for the allies to reach the Med.

Now look at what happens if Italy builds a carrier.

What does the carrier do, it costs 14 IPC’s to build from a 10 IPC country.  That’s 1 full turn of unproductivity, on top of that what does the carrier do?  It doesn’t attack, it can establish no zone of control,how much is this going to help?  If I’m the axis I want to blow s*it up!  Leave the pure defensive stuff for those sissy allies.  I just spent 14 dollars from a 10 dollar country that doesnt help me attack, I can still only send 2 units to Africa, and now I am short ground units.  On top of which a carrier in the Med doesn’t do much to extend any useful range for the Italian fighter.  If you use Jap or Ger fighters this makes a carrier with 2 planes that just sits there.  If the allies ignore it you just wasted 14 dollars something that does nothing.  Essentialy you are in danger of buying something more expensive than a destroyer and less useful due to no attack power.  Why is the Japanese carrier better than this?  Because it is free and the airplanes on that carrier can be useful if Japan decides to pick a little bit on Africa. And for those who want to buy a carrier and an airplane, congrats you just spent 24 IPC’s on units that can’t take or hold land from a 10 IPC country and you can still only funnel 2 troops at a time to Africa/ Russia assuming you have any ground troops after going hog wild on a defensive navy.

Cruisers are almost just as useless, but at least they can attack (and you can still attack w/the Ita plane too).  Battleships are just too pricy to be usefull, and submarines are gimmicky and would probably warrent their own topic of when and when not to use subs (though they are cheap cannon fodder in the right situation).  If you insist on an Italian capital ship the destroyer may be the best option, but I still don’t see the use of it with Italy’s ltd funds.

Look at the Transport ship though, this is the only ship I could see being profitable.  It activates another ship bombartment, and it gives you increases threat an flexability, plus you may save a little money by not purchasing tanks to rush to the Eastern Front by just using transports to shuttle inf/art.  This is the only real viable navel option I see, a boat that is cheap and poses a real threat, that’s what the Axis have to look,at especially cash straped Italy.

You also have to figure, if Germany can build a few extra planes (and maybe even a bomber) this in a way is providing a defense to your ships, this is helped even more if you have a Jap carrier their (If you feel protecting the Italian fleet is that important and that much in peril).

Another important thing to look at, is that time is not on the Axis’ side.  Time spent building purley defensive units is slowing you down.  The allies essentially HAVE to build unproductive units.  Everytime the US sends a tranny with 2 units on it it wastes 7IPC’s.  They also have to spend money on destroyers, carriers, etc in the first few turns.  All things that can’t attack or take land, this is to good an opportunity to be as aggresive as possible in the most cost effective way possible.

Finally, and most importantly how important is the Italian fleet to the Allied army?  If it was their top priority, it would be sunk by turn 2 without you even getting to use it.  Britain could simply build 3 bombers on T1 (bringing the total to 4) and has a good chance of having an extra fighter from Egy the most Italy can have in defense is 1 Bat, 2 cru, 1 Des.  This could then be followed by 2 more bombers for clean up by the US just in case.  Perhaps America would build the convoy fleet the first turn.  If the Italian navy really is that important, it will not get a chance to survive.

@bongaroo:

@dondoolee:

And fleets are not better on defense than Infantry.  1 Infantry unit costs 3 ans defends at 2, 1 destroyer costs 8 and defends at 2.

I was referring to naval combat.  Not to the best unit for defense.

CVs are better on the defensive and so are any planes riding on them.  Also, in Italy’s case specifically, on defense you’ll be facing either the US, or the UK one at a time.  On the attack your facing them combined in SZ12 more than likely.

Italy needs a fleet and money spent on dropping more boats in the water to keep boots moving into Africa is a sound plan in my book.

Still if you want to defend Italy, 3 inf and 1 tank is better than spending 14 IPC’s for a carrier defending.  You get more bang for your buck using ground units to defend, plus you can use them to take land if they survive.  But you can get “free” defense from Japan, a German airforce to help you out, PLUS there is a decent chance you can get 1-3 surviving German subs to combine with your navy all at no cost to Italy.