Subs and Destroyers

Hey guys,

Been thinking of ways to make naval warfare more enticing in AA1914.

I think it is an opportunity to give something unique to both sides, so here’s what I was thinking.

For the Entente (Allies) : Freighters. You can build 1 per 8 land IPC you command, costs 3 IPC, 2 movement speed. Every time it ends its turn either next to a neutral country worth 2 IPCs or more or in the naval base of one of your allies (not your own), you gain 2 IPCs.

For the CPs (Axis):

Restricted Sub Warfare : Active from the game’s onset, on the British turn, every CP sub in sea zones 2, 7 and 8 roll and on a 3 or less, 1 IPC is deduced from the UK’s income. Unrestricted Sub Warfare : Active when declared by Germany. Same as above except that it applies to the UK and the US’ turns and every sub in those areas are automatic hits and 1 IPC is deduced. The Entente may remove one roll for every surface warship in those zones. Merchant Raiders : 3 IPCs, movement speed of 2. They are stealthy and can therefore sail past blockading enemies like subs do. Every turn they end up adjacent to an enemy territory, that enemy loses 1 IPC. If the territory is worth 2 IPCs or more, the lost IPC is instead transferred to the raider’s owner. Only 1 IPC per raider may be deducted and gained this way. To sink the raider, the Entente must send ships in that area to find it. Instead of normal combat, the Entente declares which ships is on “raider” duty. He gets 1 point per ship sent and then rolls a die. If the number rolled is equal to or less than the number of ships sent, the raider is found and destroyed (so if 3 ships are sent on patrol, a roll of 3 or less destroys the ship). He gets only one roll per turn. The CPs may only have one raider per 6 land IPCs they own.

I think this could make naval combat more fun and significant in the game, especially for the CPs who could see value in trying to take command of the seas or force the Allies to chase them around. On the Entente side, it would give some countries (Italy, USA particularly) a shot at boosting their IPCs and decide if they play the long economic game at the risk of lacking armies.

Let me know what you think !

CWO Marc I am not talking the Tech, but rather the availability of Sonar for ASW on ships designed for ASW and not the U boat threat but rather U boats attacking in unison.
Another factor with historically accurate concepts has to be playability without getting overly complicated.

IE German assault guns over tanks was lack of resources….and the availability of chassis from outdated tanks like the PZ ll and PZ 38t to create a need in Self propelled Artillery and Anti-Tank vehicles. I assure you that the Tanks were preferred over assault guns. This concept has morphed in house rules to what these assault guns were actually intended to do. A Panzer Division commander would rather be supplied Panthers over JagdPanthers

@baron-münchhausen I think part of what’s needed to make subs both simpler and more realistic is to have a strict “up or down” rule that always applies. In other words, in any given battle, for the entire battle, the sub is either above the waterline or below the waterline. The sub’s owner might get to choose, or the attacker might get to choose, depending on how many destroyers and planes and things are in the battle zone, but we can’t have five different “states” for a sub to exist in, because that’s part of what causes the confusion. Right, like I don’t want to learn about what happens to a sub whose surprise strike is cancelled but that can still submerge but only after the first round of combat. That’s just too much. Either the sub is up, in which case it participates fully in combat, or down, in which case it ignores all combat.

Just my two cents.

HI A&A Gamers!  8-)

I just made a little resume about sub-pens, because after many hours of research about them, i think that clarification must be done about this great building. Thanks for the xeno forum, ive take many info here

enjoy!

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Sub-Pens ( may also be called U-Boat Pens) (based on Xeno world at war 2005 4Th.) The Best Rule!

The battle for the Atlantic and the German U-Boat offensive take on a new dimension as German subs hunt the Atlantic for British/U.S. merchant shipping and do steadily increasing IPC damage to the British war economy. Britain has to scramble to develop radar technology and set up a well positioned force to contain and counter the German U-boat menace. The sub pens provide a safe haven for German subs to sally forth from, do economic damage, and return to without much danger of being sunk in their protective pens.

Pens will play a key role, providing a safe place for subs to hide, which becomes important because of sub’s ability to convoy hunt. On the German player’s turn he can send his subs out on patrol to hunt convoys, do some damage to the British economy, and then scoot them back into the pen. The pens are a big headache for the British player and normally require a multi turn bombing campaign to get rid of (first the British player has to destroy French industry and Germany’s ability to replace the pens on France’s coast, then the British player can focus on taking out the pens themselves).

By Mike Xeno

Sub-pens are special fortified defensives buildings that protect submarines from air and sea attack by sheltering them. Germany (or all other players if you want) may produce sub-pens at a cost of 8 IPCs each. Sub-pens must be built in a sea zone adjacent to a land zone with an industrial complex, just like all naval units. The player may build any number of pens, but only one in a single sea area. Sub-pens may not move.

Submarines may be placed in sub-pens in order to help defend them from attacking aircraft. They may hold an amount of 2 subs maximum (optional rule: you can set an unlimited number). Sub-pens are treated as a “sea zone within a sea zone” (separate sea zone). When in the same sea zone as a sub-pen, submarines may move into or out of the sub-pen without any movement cost at any time during player’s turn. Newly built sub-pens can have subs on the board placed into them right away, and newly built subs can be placed immediately in a pen that is already on the board. Subs in a pen cannot choose to defend the sea zone of this pen.

Sub-pens are only vulnerable to air attack (They never take damage from naval units). Any other friendly or enemy ships have no effect on attacking, defending, etc with regards to the sub pen. Any friendly ships in the same sea zone can be attacked separately. The pen has a permanent A/A capacity that is used (and only be used) against attacking aircraft. The pen defends in combat just like a normal A/A gun, except when attacked by aircraft, sub-pen defend by rolling 3 dices (no matter the number of attacking aircraft) each round, with each roll of 1-2 scoring a hit. During an air attack on a sub-pen, submarines in a pen are considered automatically detected but they may choose to withdraw/submerge after each round of combat. Hits on a sub-pen hit the subs in the pen first, then the pen itself once all the subs are destroyed. Sub-pens also require two hits to be destroy, not just one. A damaged sub-pen defends on a 1 instead of a 2 and costs 3 IPCs to repair. If an enemy force conquers a territory with a sub-pen, that pen is destroyed and removed from play.

Resume

a) Roll 3 dices for the pen (no matter the number of attacking aircraft). Hit on a 2 or less.
b) Remove casualties for attacker (fighters and/or bombers.)
c) Roll dice for planes.
d) Remove casualties for defender (the subs is hit first/then calculated two hits for the sub-pen).
e) Subs may withdraw/submerge. (Follow standard Axis and Allies rules.)
f) Planes may retreat.
g) Next round of combat. Repeat step a)

Faqs:

Question:

Sub-pens have A/A capability. May they defend just in the case of an air attack against the pen or also in the case of over flight?

Answer:

Only in an attack on the pen. The pen doesn’t cover the global sea area, only the pen him-self.

Question:

It said pens have no zone of control. Does this mean I can attack a naval zone with a pen adjacent and just fight the units in the sea zone and not the ones from the pen?

Answer:

Yes, and the subs in the pen never support the units in the naval zone. Example: Germany has a sub pen with 2 subs in it on France, and a cruiser (all in the same sea zone). Britain decides to attack the sea zone with 2 battleships and a sub. Britain attacks only the cruiser. Germany defends with only the cruiser (the subs cannot assist). Britain may not attack the German sub pen and subs within it with its ships.

Question:

If I build subs in a pen may they be initially placed just in the pen or directly in the adjacent sea zone?

Answer:

Your choice.

Question:

Do I have to spend a movement point for transfer a sub (into/ out) a pen adjacent sea zone?

Answer:

No.

Question:

I thought that sub pens prevented subs from a naval attack, as sub pens themselves are given the same protection. That would mean the only way to kill a sub in a sub pen would be to risk an aerial attack?

Answer:

A sub-pen needs to be taken out with aerial attack or, it is destroyed if the land area it is attached to is captured by the enemy.

If something in this briefing seem wrong or bad, say it! and leave any suggestion or idea!  :-D

ty and have a good game!

Frank

under my files i made these. They are all public files under mediafire

Thanks axis_roll!

Trusty

all destroyers and cruiser may fire an ASW attack roll or normal combat roll, regardless of submarine detection

in your example effectively all 4 ships can fire ASW attack roll at the 1 detected submarine

@Imperious:

heres some manageable rules to use:

I most like the part about destroyer and crusier negate submarine’s preemptive fire on a 1-to-1 basis (rather than unlimited in AAR).

Simple enough to implement for even first time players. Yet quite effective in improving gameplay dynamics.