IL:
and now Japan… Japan started the war to keep oil flowing since USA cut it off. I guess we need to add something for them like “Japan must capture one oil center by turn 7 or face effects of oil shortage” I would place this turn by the turn after which USA is activated under 1939 rules in the event Japan does not attack. That buys Japan only one turn to avoid the USA and or avoid taking oil. As you know if USA is not attacked by Japan on turn 6, they can start war on turn 7.
Is this “Official”? Reason is this generated a lot of good discussion by our newly formed group who are about to play our frst 1939 version game and are just debating a few of the rules. This appears to be realistic to the actual events and will force Japan (AND PROVIDE A FAIR CHANCE) to occupy and fortify not only Borneo and the Indies (for the oil) but also the Philippines (to protect US attacks against the islands and also Japan. It also appears that the US would concentrate here as any disruption to the oil will cause Japan to slowly bleed out given they lose movement and unit cost on turn 3. It is unlikely? that Japan would be able to occupy oil centers in Kazakh S.S.R. or middle east before before US occupation (depending on how aggressive the US player is).
Its official right now pending review. Of course you need something to address a possible issue in the oil aspect of the 1939 edition. Japan went to war knowing she needed the oil of the dutch Indies and THAT would lead to war, so she faced running out of oil in 6 months or launch an attack on USA AND then take the oil.
To model historical reality, she must capture any one oil center by turn 6 or 7. I told you guys 7 would be a good starting point because it allows greater flexibility because Japan may just let the Americans take the attack and leave Hawaii alone…
or if she attacks Hawaii on turn 6 AND say Borneo she may not take it in one turn, so she has another chance on turn 7 to finish the job.
I suppose a third way would be to have her roll out each turn…
Example:
The Japanese rolls a die each turn to determine the end of her reserve oil supply.
If she gets a 6 on any turn, then she has 2 turns to grab oil center or face its effects on the third.
Each turn the modifier moves +1 and it starts at 1 on turn 1, so by turn 4 Japan is adding +4 to her roll, trying to avoid 6 or greater.
This would be the general idea for a more elaborate solution.
Remember: Germany and Italy are tied to the same Romanian oil center. Its activated on turn 3 so both are safe.
Also, UK has no oil center and is exempted from its effects, these are assumed under her issues of losing IPC from German U-boats attacks which is also the sinking of oil shipments.
I don’t see a 1 to 1 comparison between Japan’s reliance on Borneo’s oil which needs to be occupied by turn 7 and possibly captured by the US or Germany’s/Italy’s reliance on Romania (assuming they can’t get to the mid east oil in time) which can be taken by the Soviets - both of which would have significant impact on unit cost and mobility and UK’s exemption from ever losing their oil because they may lose a few IPC from German U-Boats.
Seems somewhat one sided. Am I missing something? Am I using too much logic over historical reality?
Not being agrumentative. Just trying to fully understand the fine points of the game.
I don’t see a 1 to 1 comparison between Japan’s reliance on Borneo’s oil which needs to be occupied by turn 7 and possibly captured by the US or Germany’s/Italy’s reliance on Romania (assuming they can’t get to the mid east oil in time) which can be taken by the Soviets -
…both of which would have significant impact on unit cost and mobility and UK’s exemption from ever losing their oil because they may lose a few IPC from German U-Boats.
Its not that the ideas are tied together in terms of the UK exemption. In the case of UK she imported all her oil and it was located in trading from other Allies, and from her own colonies. I cant clutter the map with all sorts of oil symbols, but instead choose to portray the major production facilities of the war time economies. The German U-boat menace if play correctly can give UK lots of problems and to balance this weakness by being an island economy so close the Germany, and secondly to model the historical justifications of: 1) Hitlers decision to attack the Caucasus rather than Moscow in 1942, 2) the Japanese decision to enter the war, 3) The major worry diplomatically Hitler had about his Romanian oil stocks, and his duty to protect it from the Soviets and his fear that UK may land in the Balkans and try to take it.
All of this needs to be somewhat abstracted in this game to provide some flavor that these considerations entail and to make them ‘juicy’ enough to try so you can learn some history behind it.
I think your trying to look at the issue to closely and not the larger picture.
If it helps i suppose Iraq/Iran could be a UK source,because as you know they attacked both in order to maintain control.
I can make a decal so you can add it to your map, or if you have not printed the 1939 map i can give you a new file with it. That way UK needs to protect the middle east. But in my games they do have alot to worry about and this just will add to problems for them.
Historically, w/o Romanian oil Hitler was in big trouble, and when it was captured he accelerated his synthetic oil production.
Japan simply could not use her fleet w/o that Oil in Borneo and East Indies.
The Soviets had more oil centers but still needed to protect them, from plunder.
Thanks IL. Your comments make sense. I will pass on adding another oil field to the mid east and trying to have UK occupy plus protect it. I agree, they will have their hands full with Germany and Japan. We need to get some games under us before we start looking at adding variences to the game.
Yes and to add, AARHE is a living rule set. Its is allowed to grow and be modified by participation of our community here. AS such we acknowledge contributions and encourage participation. So its on you to be part of it and make it yours, and we will make clarifications and changes so that its perfect because it can evolve…unlike other variants.
So the bottom line is if something is discovered it will be fixed. So i guess ill add an oil field for UK,but ill have to do research on where UK got most of its oil… Iraq or Iran or?
adding an oil resource to Iran or Iraq for UK on the 1939 map may pose a conflict with existing rules. Both have oil wells on them already. Unless you are going to change them from neutral to UK territory UK can not be the aggressor and take them by force (per your rules stating the US and UK are non-aggressive. If you are going to give UK control at the start, I suggest Iraq which borders Trans-Jorden which is already UK controlled.
Yes, exactly
I think the map is just fine then…. the UK player derives his oil from Iraq ( no kidding) and if Iraq falls into Axis hands the Uk player will face oil shortage as per rules…
Historically England controlled Iraq so that it can continue to get oil, and when a pro German tribal leader Rachid Ali took over:
In May 1941, in the midst of a World War, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill ordered his reluctant Commander-in-Chief Middle East, General Sir Archibald Wavell, to march on Baghdad to effect a “regime change.” The British Prime Minister’s arguments reflected many of those same concerns expressed today by members of the George W. Bush administration: British intervention would “pre-empt” Axis support for Rachid Ali, a violently anti-British Arab nationalist whose government threatened Britain’s strategic position in the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It would strike a blow at a terrorist challenge orchestrated by a charismatic Islamic cleric. British intervention also would protect oil reserves vital to the British war effort. Furthermore, Churchill was willing to wave aside offers of third-party mediation in favor of a “unilateralist” approach. Conversely, Wavell’s arguments against an invasion of Iraq mirrored contemporary objections—he simply lacked the resources to add Iraq to an impossibly extensive list of military commitments. A military attack, Wavell believed, would make Britain’s position in the Middle East less, not more, secure. Better let sleeping dogs lie and take care of pressing business elsewhere.
So your idea is the perfect solution, if UK feels the Axis are getting too close to Iraq, they may invade it in order to protect their oil imports…. Thats the official word on UK… if they lose Iraq or it turns diplomatically axis, they need to secure its oil or face oil crunch. BTW Iran was also INVADED by both Soviets and UK, so they had backup in case Iraq did fall.
Just goes to show you IL…the more things change (70+ years) the more things stay the same.
Anyway, I like the proposed ruling alot so let me see if I have it straight. 1939. UK gets its oil from Iraq. UK is able to protect its oil reserve by military force if necessary. They can occupy Iraq if political diplomacy goes to the axis at a -3, where I assume UK’s oil flow would stop. If occupied by Axis or Russia, UK can liberate Iraq which would automatically make it a +5 ally. I think our group may include Iran as an oil producer as well as that will give UK a fighting chance and Germany/Italy/and Russia something to consider strategically.
We will let you know how this plays out. Many thanks.
Anyway, I like the proposed ruling alot so let me see if I have it straight. 1939. UK gets its oil from Iraq. UK is able to protect its oil reserve by military force if necessary. They can occupy Iraq if political diplomacy goes to the axis at a -3, where I assume UK’s oil flow would stop.
yes indeed, they would have to secure another source…invade Iraq or Iran or even Arabia or face oil effects.
If occupied by Axis or Russia, UK can liberate Iraq which would automatically make it a +5 ally. I think our group may include Iran as an oil producer as well as that will give UK a fighting chance and Germany/Italy/and Russia something to consider strategically.
Yes right thats it. Iran or Arabia because alternate oil source for UK. However, we could make allow coexist rules for Iran for UK and Russians due to the actual collaborating invasion. it would be an exception to the rule about Soviet Xenophobia.
I’m envious… I’m going to have to build me a 1939 map and try and get someone to play it!
Bierwagan, have you seen the 1939 map IL has created? Not sure if anyone else was involved in that project or not as it has several obvious changes from AARHE’s 1941-42 map.
Our group actually likes the 1939 map better as many of the territories have been divided up to reflect the time and added play. To our group, it offers much greater strategic play options as several countries now have to occupy the territories given to them in the 1942 version. We just started using it and first look we thought it may be somewhat allied sided. This promted the discussion above re: oil reserves. Plus, Japan, Germany and Italy start at a much lower IPC total than US, UK, France and China.
However, US doesn’t enter the war until turn 5 unless attacked. There are other restrictions limiting the initial starting IPCs for the allies. If you haven’t seen the links to the map and 1939 suppliment rules to AARHE Rules version 4.0 go here:
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/maps/ This is IL’s link
1939 map is our supreme effort…the final stage of three levels of play.
I have a thread that contains pictures of the map with pieces…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11095.0
heres that link
IL. Awesome set up. I need to ask three questions re: your map pics:
1. Where did you get the “buttons” your pieces are glued to? I can’t find anything thats close. I even thought about painting pennies or nickels (US 1 cent or 5 cent pieces) to glue my pieces on. Would be cheaper than buying anything i’ve seen.
2. Where did you get your pieces from. And what size are they? They look like 1/72 or 15 mm. Having trouble finding good quality but inexpensive artillery, tanks, planes and ships.
3. What size did you blow your map to?
1. Where did you get the “buttons” your pieces are glued to? I can’t find anything thats close. I even thought about painting pennies or nickels (US 1 cent or 5 cent pieces) to glue my pieces on. Would be cheaper than buying anything i’ve seen.
Washers bought from “do-it center” Hillman fender washers– 1/8x3/4— item # 290001— box of 100 for $5 bucks…you can find them on internet and order
2. Where did you get your pieces from. And what size are they? They look like 1/72 or 15 mm. Having trouble finding good quality but inexpensive artillery, tanks, planes and ships.
Its all skytrex.com stuff 15mm infantry, 1/285 miroarmor, 1/2400 scale naval… about a buck each piece and if you place a large order shipping is free
3. What size did you blow your map to?
60x36 from AAA flag and banner for about $155 bucks printed on 1/4 thick plastic sheets with vinyl decal applied. www.AAAflagandbanner.com you send the link and money they print and ship.
