Who makes out better with the bid?

@LT04:

My group doesn’t normally use the bid system.  After giving it some thought and doing some reading here it sounds like most give the big to Germany. Why?

LT

EDIT: I am assuming that the bid is going to Germany and Japan.

What rules are you using?
How many VC are you playing to?
Are there skill differences between the players?

All these factor into who may/may not get a bid.

@LT04:

My group doesn’t normally use the bid system.  After giving it some thought and doing some reading here it sounds like most give the big to Germany. Why?

LT

EDIT: I am assuming that the bid is going to Germany and Japan.

I’ve wondered the same thing.  We don’t use the bid either LT

The best way to take advantage of the bid is to put troops directly on the front for key early battles to change advantage for several turns.  Since germany has more of these (particularly land battles since bids don’t buy you much navy), they typically get most of the bid.  In a typical KGF game, germany is under more pressure so they often need the boost more than japan.

The most common is a bid in africa to facilitate taking egypt, holding off a Uk1 retake, and allow a tank blitz through africa.  This has the potential to swing the economics by many ipcs (+ for germany and - for UK) for several turns. It can also allow the germans to send the med fleet west (Threatening fleet unification or a UK landing), taking egypt without transporting troops from italy. Probably the next-most-common is where people place bids on the eastern front - usually ukraine - to preserve another fig for germany (allowing them to pressure allied shipping and trade more efficiently) and to put added pressure on the unit-poor russians fairly quickly.  This can help germany take and hold ukraine for several turns and sometimes allows an all-out offensive to be launched toward moscow if russia gets bad dice on R1.  Transport bids in the med or baltic can put pressure on the allies in areas they don’t usually see it (Caucasus, London).  I’ve heard people mention a sub bid in the atlantic to hit the UK fleet on G1, but frankly I’ve never seen anyone try it.

The only place japan tends to get land units is to push the uk out of india quickly.  (e.g., FIC)  But Japan doesn’t tend to do a lot of early heavy fighting.  Half the time the allies turn and run anyway, so germany tends to benefit more from the bid.  Sometimes japan gets a transport bid added to the e.indies or caroline fleet to hit india, australia or hawaii harder earlier

@captainjack:

@LT04:

My group doesn’t normally use the bid system.  After giving it some thought and doing some reading here it sounds like most give the big to Germany. Why?

LT

EDIT: I am assuming that the bid is going to Germany and Japan.

I’ve wondered the same thing.  We don’t use the bid either LT

How experienced are your play groups?  With more game play, the allies can better take advantage of the 3 on 2 advantage as well as rely on defense more.

@allies_fly:

@captainjack:

@LT04:

My group doesn’t normally use the bid system.  After giving it some thought and doing some reading here it sounds like most give the big to Germany. Why?

LT

EDIT: I am assuming that the bid is going to Germany and Japan.

I’ve wondered the same thing.  We don’t use the bid either LT

How experienced are your play groups?  With more game play, the allies can better take advantage of the 3 on 2 advantage as well as rely on defense more.

My play group is pretty well balanced - beginner to experienced players.

@LT04:

I would say my group is beginner to monerate.  I wouldn’t call any one of us an expert.  Normally we get a 1 on 1 FTF game going (with kids and stuff we don’t always end up in the same place at the same time.)

I have just started a play by email game with another player here mostly b/c I want to see how I stack up and partly I want to see new ideas in action.

I am the Axis player and I have a 9 IPC bid. The bid rule is I can not place more then one bid unit per space.  So I purchased 3 INF for Japan and placed one of each on Japan’s Asia foothold spaces. (FIC - Manchuria).

Japan typiclly will do the traditional Pearl attact and China push.  I am hoping that with this bid I can take India heavy on J2.  I would try it on J1 but I kind of want to see if an IC will be placed there.

I picked only INF for a few reasons. 1) I get the most units that way.  2) INF are slow so I can send faster units after them to catch up. 3) they make great fodder.

Germany and Russia will normally get into a stale mate with my group so that is why I want to push hard with Japan.  This I am hoping will force Russia to deal with the Eastern Russian front.

LT - Like I mentioned before, I don’t use a bid either, so I am very interested to know how the Japan placement works out for you.  Thanks.

Another possibility for J to use the bid is to place 1 transport either with the Carolines fleet (allowing to reinforce Asia on J2 with the INF from Carolines/Borneo/Okinawa) or place it on the East Indies fleet.
The last one gives the UK player a bit of a headache: from that location it can drop the 2 INF in E. Indies on Australia/India/Egypt/Persia/Jordan.

well, for a 8bid, i think transport naval bid is most popular indpendantly of where it is placed.

But for a bid of 7 and less, I was toying with the idea of an AA gun in ukraine and giving the 1-2 ipc to Japan for 2 transport/1 IC as J1 build.

This bid deals with the fear of risking Russian fighters so they are not commited in Ukraine opening. The AA gun should not really prevent Germany from swapping and recapturing it, so you don’t really lose that unit if Ukraine is taken anyways R1.

It can leads to stupid Russian moves like sending 3 tanks in Ukraine instead R1. Even after that, it could be a constant hasard for Russian fighters when trading that territory and conduct them to bleed more ground troops while the German med fleet can still BB shore there and use it’s own artillery.

Many Russian players will think VERY hard when facing this. Especially if you played them and you know they value their fighters, it’s like in poker, sometimes you better of playing the player than the cards.

I’ve played a no bid AAR game (that’s revised for those that don’t know the abbreviation) but we had the optional rule of Russia restricted. (They could attack nothing but W. Russia, since it has the name “Russia” in it’s name, we assumed it was a liberation, not an attack.)

Otherwise, the Axis, in my humble opinion, need at least 3 IPC (2 for Germany so they can have 14 infantry on round 1 and 1 for Japan so they can have 2 transports and an Industrial Complex on Round 1.)

Without that, I feel, the Axis are at a bit of a disadvantage that can be made up for with superior tactics, but is easier to make up for with a small bid. (BTW, I prefer much higher bids, closer too 6 or 7 IPCs, but 3 is the absolute minimum.)

I do not like the AA bid to Ukraine.

For less money, you can buy another INF.  That INF will roll a 2 on defense instead of two 1’s.  And it will do so for more than 1 round.  Thus the INF will kill MORE Russians than 1 AA will.

Also, after G1, I am probably going to be trading Ukraine using the Luftwaffe, and I most certainly do NOT want to risk my FIGs to do so.  You can;t move the AA out unless you own the territory at the start of your move, so once the AA falls to Russia, you get stuck facing it every turn as Germany.  You either risk your FIGs, or sacrifice ARM or ART to trade Ukraine, which is a VERY positive result for Russia.

$5 bid as an AA for Germany in Ukraine may as well be a $5 bid for RUSSIA! (in most games)

I remind you AA is for a 7ipc bid. You also totally miss the point of placing an AA gun there. The only question you need to answer is: Playing Russia, would you send red fighters on Ukraine R1 with an AA gun there.

First of all, an Ukraine opening is a bad move for Russia. Let’s clear that out. On my last 11 games that saw that opening, i won 8 with an agressive tank push. Thoses I lost were because Russian player did keep his tank force in reserve.

Here we want Russian to either not do the Ukraine opening OR to commit 3 tanks to do it instead of it’s 2 fighters + 1 tank.

Commiting thoses 3 tanks makes a bad opening an even worst opening. As German, It’s what i want, to kill thoses tanks G1, stack everything i have in Ukraine and be in a great position to set up a Tank push to crush whatever is left after a hazardous R2 counter ( with 3 tanks less and Aa gun still facing it’s fighters, casualties will be high even if russia commit everything).

Ok CB. You have me totally confused. Lets go through your post…

@Corbeau:

I remind you AA is for a 7ipc bid. You also totally miss the point of placing an AA gun there. The only question you need to answer is: Playing Russia, would you send red fighters on Ukraine R1 with an AA gun there.

I take it the answer you are looking for is “no”. Ok, assume I agree with that.

First of all, an Ukraine opening is a bad move for Russia.

Assume I agree with that too.

Here we want Russian to either not do the Ukraine opening OR to commit 3 tanks to do it instead of it’s 2 fighters + 1 tank.

Commiting thoses 3 tanks makes a bad opening an even worst opening. As German, It’s what i want, to kill thoses tanks G1, stack everything i have in Ukraine and be in a great position to set up a Tank push to crush whatever is left after a hazardous R2 counter ( with 3 tanks less and Aa gun still facing it’s fighters, casualties will be high even if russia commit everything).

This is where you lost me. You WANT USSR to attack UKR, but then you place an AA gun there, which should assure you that USSR does not attack UKR.

Now, if you placed an INF there, you have better odds of USSR doing what you want them to, and you still have an art left over for lybia.

Therefore, aren’t you better served with an inf placement rather than your AA ?

Use the bid on an AA gun?  No, seriously?

The only possible worse bid would be a sub that couldn’t defend itself against air attacks in a land-locked body of water, like say, maybe, a Caspian sub.

Come to think of it, from Paper #07:

Appendix D: What Do You Mean You Can’t Destroy the AA Gun?  Your Guys Can’t Find Any Rocks?

Whatever happened to sweet, scorched earth?

In the old versions of AA, you couldn’t have multiple AA guns in the same territory.  That meant that if Germany lost Western Europe, the Germans would have their own AA gun firing at them on the retake.  We didn’t like that.

We liked destroying things as soon as they were going to fall into enemy hands.  Putting an AA gun on a defenseless transport was the only legal way to do it.

In AA4, you can just move the gun back to your capital with any other guns, so it’s less of a big deal.  But why can’t you just blow up your own stuff?  You can’t just push it into the ocean?  I mean, you have guns and bombs and stuff, why not just stomp on the AA guns with both feet, like a monkey?

Caspian Sub scientists have been working around the clock to answer this question and they have made a tremendous discovery: the gray plastic pieces are completely indestructible.  You will notice that an IC is never destroyed, AA guns are not destroyed, and plastic chips are simply recycled between you and your enemy.  We do not know what goes into the gray plastic, but be warned that the gray plastic is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.  Apparently it is made of the same substance they use to make the black boxes in airplanes, only it’s gray.  The only way to put an AA gun out of commission is to hide it under the ocean.  And notice that even that doesn’t destroy it; it simply cannot hit planes anymore.  If possible, build your own units out of this substance.

@squirecam:

This is where you lost me. You WANT USSR to attack UKR, but then you place an AA gun there, which should assure you that USSR does not attack UKR.

Now, if you placed an INF there, you have better odds of USSR doing what you want them to, and you still have an art left over for lybia.

Therefore, aren’t you better served with an inf placement rather than your AA ?

Quoting myself… Here we want Russian to either not do the Ukraine opening OR to commit 3 tanks to do it instead of it’s 2 fighters + 1 tank.

So no, infantry bid won’t ensure Russia commit 3 tanks if they still do it since they can use fighters without risks. Of course i’d rather keep Ukraine but i plan for the worst case scenario also, which infantry don’t allow me to do. I’m also using that AA gun to protect my 10 units stack G1 once i retake it. It have no value for Russia since i don’t need air units to do so.

R1 Ukraine with only 1 arm?  That is more likely than not going to fail to even take the territory/kill the G fig without losing russia’s planes.  Was that a typo?  Or have I been missing something all this time.

@Corbeau:

@squirecam:

This is where you lost me. You WANT USSR to attack UKR, but then you place an AA gun there, which should assure you that USSR does not attack UKR.

Now, if you placed an INF there, you have better odds of USSR doing what you want them to, and you still have an art left over for lybia.

Therefore, aren’t you better served with an inf placement rather than your AA ?

Quoting myself… Here we want Russian to either not do the Ukraine opening OR to commit 3 tanks to do it instead of it’s 2 fighters + 1 tank.

So no, infantry bid won’t ensure Russia commit 3 tanks if they still do it since they can use fighters without risks. Of course i’d rather keep Ukraine but i plan for the worst case scenario also, which infantry don’t allow me to do. I’m also using that AA gun to protect my 10 units stack G1 once i retake it. It have no value for Russia since i don’t need air units to do so.

USSR 3INF 1ART 3TANK 2FIG. Thats 21.

GER 3INF 1ART 1TANK 1FIG. Thats 15.

Add one German inf and it is 21-17. Take away a single USSR tank, and its 18-17.

I dont see why USSR would attack UKR and not bring its tanks. It really needs them to win.

If i go with raw dice numbers, adding an AA gun will result in Russia not sending fighters.

USSR 3INF 1ART 3TANK = 15
GER 3INF 1ART 1TANK 1FIG. = 15.

If Russia send fighters, normal scenario happens, i get AA shots on fighters and get back my AA gun the next turn with my 10 units stack and backed with a prepared tank push. I don’t lose that AA, it cannot be destroyed.

3 tanks is indeed the safe way to take ukraine. 2 tanks, yields a 85% chance to take land + 96% to kill fighter. One tank still gives slighty above 50% chance of winning and higher ones to kill fighter ( don’t have the numbers). Some players, do take chances when they can trade evenly and they are the same that inflicted me a defeat in that scenario