Another look at the SAF IC

The biggest threat to the axis I can imagine is fortress Moscow so tight you cannot break into it.  To prevent that, the best Idea I can think of is to pummel Russia with Japan and Germany, and if that means making a choice between 4 Russian infantry in Ukraine to kill at minimal cost, or 4 British infantry in Belorussia to kill, then kill the Russians. (Flip territories if you want, just because I want to point out that it’s not territory, it’s targets.)

Bleeding England is okay.  But Russia is your primary target.  Besides, England should be bleeding pretty well without it’s empire supporting it.

Well, if fortress Moscow is so tough, then the easiest and most logical way about thinking about it is that Russian inf aren’t the only inf that count on defense there, so it doesn’t make any difference which inf you kill - since both can defend Moscow. The difference is the Russian inf don’t have enough support to crack Berlin, but the UK’s buildup can. You can kill all the Russian inf you want but have a zillion Americans/British there, which still means Fortress Moscow.

Yes, but odds are, the lion’s portion of the defending infantry in Moscow are Russian just like most of the planes are either American or English.

Right?

So if you can dwindle the Russian stacks before they turtle, you’re ahead more then if you dwindle England’s or America’s stacks, since they are not represented in as much force as Russia anyway.

no offence Jen but that is broken logic IMO. Bean is right, a US infantry deffends just as well as a USSR infantry in moscow. the only diffrence would be if Russian winter is in effect, then it’s only a 1 turn thing that the Germans know is comming and can wait a turn.

but i aggree with the idea to break the USSR’s infantry above the US/UK’s.
the reason for this IMO is that not all the Allies move at one time, so whe the USSR starts to pull back to Moscow they will be leaving US/UK units exposed for a turn before they can move back, giving Germany the opertunity to strike at them.
if the Allies make the call to move together, then they have to start on the UK’s turn after Germany moved, this would be the only way to make that call, and then a lot can happen between when the UK starts to pull back and the USSR moves back. in other words a full Allied pull back has to be planed a full turn in advance and also rellies on Japan doing nothing to counter it, and they should know whats going on when they see a large amount of UK forces in USSR pull back to Moscow.

:-o
Wow, the twist and turns a topic can take!
As for which to killl if given a choice, kills Ruskies! Every time.
And they call me crazy  :?

@Pervavita:

no offence Jen but that is broken logic IMO. Bean is right, a US infantry deffends just as well as a USSR infantry in moscow. the only diffrence would be if Russian winter is in effect, then it’s only a 1 turn thing that the Germans know is comming and can wait a turn.

You two misunderstand me then.  A US Infantry defends just as well as a Russian infantry, but a US Infantry cannot attack with Russian tanks.  That’s the difference and why I think you should target Russia over England or America (assuming you have to chose.)

I guess it’s not fortress Moscow that you really fear, but it’s more like…strafe-happy Moscow with 50 inf 10 arm and art/figs from Russia? I interpreted fortress Moscow as an impenetrable defense while the Allies gather more money than the Axis (Europe + Africa > all of Asia), but maybe you’re really fearing Russian strafes of Cauc/Novo with inf + its arm and stuff. Maybe I interpreted wrong.

In response to that, I usually designate 20-30 inf as pushers that go hardcore and help push Germany back to the capital. I don’t care if they die, in fact I’d rather they die so that the UK can accumulate one solid strike force. Which is not to say that I’m throwing them away in bad trades, but I’m hardly bothered if Germany targets them over UK inf because they are too far to help Moscow anyhow, and the Allies could use a little help moving in to E. Europe.

When you need to crack the German capital, you’d prefer to have a massive UK strikeforce with little Russian inf left rather than lots of Russian inf in E. Europe with little little UK inf left. And the other 10-20 inf + all builds from there on out is to defend against Japan with massive strafing power. Maybe I didn’t understand your case.

Yea, it’s more of limiting the three allies in what they can do to me.  By stripping Russia of infantry whenever possible, they cannot build up stacks like they could otherwise.  Meanwhile, England and America have the problem of getting their units into stacks to begin with since they have to transport them.

England and America have the problem of getting their units into stacks to begin with since they have to transport them.

Yup yup gotta agree, the Allies are stronger but harder to use. It’s easier to jilt the Allied game with a gambit than it is to jilt the Axis game because of all the damn transport logistics.  :roll:

Why are you rolling your eyes there?  Being factitious? Or are you being serious?

And I’m not so much looking for “gambits.”  I’m just saying, personally, I think it is better to attack Russia then the other allies IF you have to make a choice between them.  Maybe you don’t have the resources to hit both (all three) but you have the resources to hit one?  How do you chose?  I, personally, chose which ever is strongest, and if they are even, then I hit the Russians. (Strongest doesn’t mean best defending stack, strongest means total board strength levied against me.)

I’m being serious, the rolling eyes is to express annoyance at having to manage logistics as the Allies. It’s like going  :roll: I have to take out the trash again… aww man.

yep guess if thats what you ment, then ya missunderstood  :wink:
so ya, in that case i aggree.

I have to take out the trash again… aww man.

that reminds me, i got to do that.

Lol at Pervavita  :lol:

Back to the original topic, I’m more interested in a Brazil complex than a UoSA complex.

The reasons why are:

1. It brings the Americans very quickly into the African game
2. The Americans have more income to spare
3. Brazil builds more units
4. Brazil is more secure
5. The UK should spent more time focusing on landing in Europe than spending so much income fighting Africa because the UK is very close
6. The American have spare airforce to use in Africa while the UK probably needs it to fend off Navy + land troops

I don’t think I like to build either complexes, but I would at least say that if you consider UoSA complex, you should probably go USA complex  :lol:

The Brazilian IC is another of things I would like try some day, as the Austalian IC. Maybe some day.

I disagree that it is broken logic at all.

They DEFEND together, but which one is more readily able to attack?  American infantry don’t attack with Russian infantry.  And Russia can pop out 8 units in Moscow on top of their units they already have there.  England and America are basically impotent for the first 5 rounds of the game.

i don’t see why go Brazil complex, i don’t think it realy speeds up the Africa game much, sure you can land south of the Sahara on the turn you load men, but then it’s 3 max, if you save that $ then spend it on 2 transports you can increase the flow form EUS to Algeria (i think the North West tip is that); if you need the troops south further, you can just take those 2 transports that cost the same as the complex (ok+1$ but you didn’t buy any transports for Brazil so it balances out) from Algeria and drop troops down further south, it adds a step in it all, but the first drop is just as fast and can have +1 unit to droop off. sure there is the threat of German planes striking your US navy, but isn’t there always? and each German plane waisted on the US is one less fighting the USSR that turn. the US should have a few war ships in that transport fleet, even if a few DD’s just to take subs out and add some fire against planes.

@Pervavita:

i don’t see why go Brazil complex, i don’t think it realy speeds up the Africa game much,

A brazilian complex can be used for more than just africa.  Late game pushes on Western Europe can be supplemented with unit buys dropped in Brazil (like an inf, tank and tpt) as they can hit the very next turn.

Also extreme but doable is 3 bombers in brazil to hit WEU the next turn as well.

I have to agree.  IC in Brazil seems less then optimal.

Why not just have two transports bring units from America to Brazil and two more from brazil over for an extra 1 IPC?  Now you are bringing 4 units, not 3.

Of course, a Brazil IC is great for Japan. =)

Of course, a Brazil IC is great for Japan. =)

yep sure is

ok if your bringing the troops up for an attack on WEU for the 1 turn transport, i can see, but again wouldn’t it be better to save the $ and transport the men from US into Africa and then use those same transports the next turn to drop those troops +1 extra off in EU.
if this plan is for an invasion, it seams like a stupid plan as 3 units arn’t going to do much of a landing, expetally when the US should already have a mass transport chain in effect between US and Africa. all your realy doing is speeding up 3 units a turn that if you invested that same money into 2 transports could be bringing over 4 units and over the course of 2 turns the US transports are now out performing the vary small advantage that the Brazil complex gave.
example

US1
build complex in Brazil
US2
trani and 2 land units
US3
land 2 land units in Africa OR WEU
Build 1 trani and 2 land units
US4
tranis’ swap spots, land 2 land units
Build 1 trani and 2 land units
US5
1 trani swaps again, land 2 units
build 3 land units
US6
2 tranis drop 3 land units, 1 trani returns to Brazil
Build 1 and 2

it took 6 turns to drop 3 units well keeping consistent transport chanes going, and this is in a perfect world where the Germans won’t see this easy target and send fighters against it.
if they stocked, then it would be 3 units every other turn.
had they inported Tranis from US, then ya more would arive faster, but it would slow the US transport of MORE troops from the EUS

compaired to spending the money on US tranis
US1
build 2 tranis, build 4 ground units
US2
Build 2 tranis, build 4 ground units
transport 4 ground units to Africa
US3
build 2 tranis, build 4 ground units
transport 4 ground units to Africa
Transport from africa 4 ground units to WEU, SEU, or a few places along the African coast.

this gives 4 units not 3 doing exactly what the Brazil complex did in half the time and gave more flex as it could strike more locations.
Brazil can’t add any real value to a US stratagy other then it means the US is diverting resources in a diffrent place and in effect slowing there war on Germany.

@Pervavita:

if this plan is for an invasion, it seams like a stupid plan as 3 units arn’t going to do much of a landing, expetally when the US should already have a mass transport chain in effect between US and Africa. all your realy doing is speeding up 3 units a turn that if you invested

Pardon me for offering another use of the Brazilian IC other than to support Africa.

I prefaced my post with the fact that it was meant to be a bit of a boost on an all out push into WEU.  In fact, they are many ‘optimal’ way to accomplish the movement of troops, but at times the need to have troops in certain areas before they can be moved is the optimal strategic move, maybe not the most efficient method.

Too many individuals are tied into scripted moves and ultra-optimal ways to ‘win’ the game.  Being able to adjust your strategy as needed is more important, IMHO.  It also is a major differentiator between good and great players.

I won’t stoop so low as to call your opinion stupid.
I have seen many good players utilize a US IC in Brazil.

Like MANY other options in this game, alot depends on what’s happened/is happening in the game.