Another look at the SAF IC

[Lucifer]

Not many games where “decent”  players let axis have Afr. If you don’t take Berlin pretty fast, then
you will lose because of economics.

[Jennifer]

If you hit Egypt with the right level of force, and don’t get fracked by the dice, then there’s nothing the allies can do to stop Germany from getting Africa for at least two rounds, maybe 3.  That’s critical when trying to keep Russia alive.

[trihero]

I’d also go so far as to say that one should ignore British units when Russian units are available to be attacked.  The idea is to bleed the Russians as much as possible while conserving your own forces.

Well…I think the exact opposite because you want to maximize Germany’s defense. Germany’s biggest threat is from a massive UK buildup, and the more you crop their forces, the more prominent the split attacker’s disadvantage becomes. I pretty much want you to attack the Russian units I send to the front lines with the British; they are simply a big vanguard for the real threat, since I cannot build up the Russian forces necessary to attack the German capital in full scale anyways.

[Jennifer]

The biggest threat to the axis I can imagine is fortress Moscow so tight you cannot break into it.  To prevent that, the best Idea I can think of is to pummel Russia with Japan and Germany, and if that means making a choice between 4 Russian infantry in Ukraine to kill at minimal cost, or 4 British infantry in Belorussia to kill, then kill the Russians. (Flip territories if you want, just because I want to point out that it’s not territory, it’s targets.)

Bleeding England is okay.  But Russia is your primary target.  Besides, England should be bleeding pretty well without it’s empire supporting it.

[trihero]

Well, if fortress Moscow is so tough, then the easiest and most logical way about thinking about it is that Russian inf aren’t the only inf that count on defense there, so it doesn’t make any difference which inf you kill - since both can defend Moscow. The difference is the Russian inf don’t have enough support to crack Berlin, but the UK’s buildup can. You can kill all the Russian inf you want but have a zillion Americans/British there, which still means Fortress Moscow.

[Jennifer]

Yes, but odds are, the lion’s portion of the defending infantry in Moscow are Russian just like most of the planes are either American or English.

Right?

So if you can dwindle the Russian stacks before they turtle, you’re ahead more then if you dwindle England’s or America’s stacks, since they are not represented in as much force as Russia anyway.

[Pervavita]

no offence Jen but that is broken logic IMO. Bean is right, a US infantry deffends just as well as a USSR infantry in moscow. the only diffrence would be if Russian winter is in effect, then it’s only a 1 turn thing that the Germans know is comming and can wait a turn.

but i aggree with the idea to break the USSR’s infantry above the US/UK’s.
the reason for this IMO is that not all the Allies move at one time, so whe the USSR starts to pull back to Moscow they will be leaving US/UK units exposed for a turn before they can move back, giving Germany the opertunity to strike at them.
if the Allies make the call to move together, then they have to start on the UK’s turn after Germany moved, this would be the only way to make that call, and then a lot can happen between when the UK starts to pull back and the USSR moves back. in other words a full Allied pull back has to be planed a full turn in advance and also rellies on Japan doing nothing to counter it, and they should know whats going on when they see a large amount of UK forces in USSR pull back to Moscow.

[Crazy Ivan]

:-o
Wow, the twist and turns a topic can take!
As for which to killl if given a choice, kills Ruskies! Every time.
And they call me crazy  :?

[Jennifer]

@Pervavita:

no offence Jen but that is broken logic IMO. Bean is right, a US infantry deffends just as well as a USSR infantry in moscow. the only diffrence would be if Russian winter is in effect, then it’s only a 1 turn thing that the Germans know is comming and can wait a turn.

You two misunderstand me then.  A US Infantry defends just as well as a Russian infantry, but a US Infantry cannot attack with Russian tanks.  That’s the difference and why I think you should target Russia over England or America (assuming you have to chose.)

[trihero]

I guess it’s not fortress Moscow that you really fear, but it’s more like…strafe-happy Moscow with 50 inf 10 arm and art/figs from Russia? I interpreted fortress Moscow as an impenetrable defense while the Allies gather more money than the Axis (Europe + Africa > all of Asia), but maybe you’re really fearing Russian strafes of Cauc/Novo with inf + its arm and stuff. Maybe I interpreted wrong.

In response to that, I usually designate 20-30 inf as pushers that go hardcore and help push Germany back to the capital. I don’t care if they die, in fact I’d rather they die so that the UK can accumulate one solid strike force. Which is not to say that I’m throwing them away in bad trades, but I’m hardly bothered if Germany targets them over UK inf because they are too far to help Moscow anyhow, and the Allies could use a little help moving in to E. Europe.

When you need to crack the German capital, you’d prefer to have a massive UK strikeforce with little Russian inf left rather than lots of Russian inf in E. Europe with little little UK inf left. And the other 10-20 inf + all builds from there on out is to defend against Japan with massive strafing power. Maybe I didn’t understand your case.

[Jennifer]

Yea, it’s more of limiting the three allies in what they can do to me.  By stripping Russia of infantry whenever possible, they cannot build up stacks like they could otherwise.  Meanwhile, England and America have the problem of getting their units into stacks to begin with since they have to transport them.

[trihero]

England and America have the problem of getting their units into stacks to begin with since they have to transport them.

Yup yup gotta agree, the Allies are stronger but harder to use. It’s easier to jilt the Allied game with a gambit than it is to jilt the Axis game because of all the damn transport logistics.  :roll:

[Jennifer]

Why are you rolling your eyes there?  Being factitious? Or are you being serious?

And I’m not so much looking for “gambits.”  I’m just saying, personally, I think it is better to attack Russia then the other allies IF you have to make a choice between them.  Maybe you don’t have the resources to hit both (all three) but you have the resources to hit one?  How do you chose?  I, personally, chose which ever is strongest, and if they are even, then I hit the Russians. (Strongest doesn’t mean best defending stack, strongest means total board strength levied against me.)

[trihero]

I’m being serious, the rolling eyes is to express annoyance at having to manage logistics as the Allies. It’s like going  :roll: I have to take out the trash again… aww man.

[Pervavita]

yep guess if thats what you ment, then ya missunderstood  :wink:
so ya, in that case i aggree.

I have to take out the trash again… aww man.

that reminds me, i got to do that.

[trihero]

Lol at Pervavita  :lol:

Back to the original topic, I’m more interested in a Brazil complex than a UoSA complex.

The reasons why are:

1. It brings the Americans very quickly into the African game
2. The Americans have more income to spare
3. Brazil builds more units
4. Brazil is more secure
5. The UK should spent more time focusing on landing in Europe than spending so much income fighting Africa because the UK is very close
6. The American have spare airforce to use in Africa while the UK probably needs it to fend off Navy + land troops

I don’t think I like to build either complexes, but I would at least say that if you consider UoSA complex, you should probably go USA complex  :lol:

[Funcioneta]

The Brazilian IC is another of things I would like try some day, as the Austalian IC. Maybe some day.

[Jennifer]

I disagree that it is broken logic at all.

They DEFEND together, but which one is more readily able to attack?  American infantry don’t attack with Russian infantry.  And Russia can pop out 8 units in Moscow on top of their units they already have there.  England and America are basically impotent for the first 5 rounds of the game.

[Pervavita]

i don’t see why go Brazil complex, i don’t think it realy speeds up the Africa game much, sure you can land south of the Sahara on the turn you load men, but then it’s 3 max, if you save that $ then spend it on 2 transports you can increase the flow form EUS to Algeria (i think the North West tip is that); if you need the troops south further, you can just take those 2 transports that cost the same as the complex (ok+1$ but you didn’t buy any transports for Brazil so it balances out) from Algeria and drop troops down further south, it adds a step in it all, but the first drop is just as fast and can have +1 unit to droop off. sure there is the threat of German planes striking your US navy, but isn’t there always? and each German plane waisted on the US is one less fighting the USSR that turn. the US should have a few war ships in that transport fleet, even if a few DD’s just to take subs out and add some fire against planes.

[axis_roll]

@Pervavita:

i don’t see why go Brazil complex, i don’t think it realy speeds up the Africa game much,

A brazilian complex can be used for more than just africa.  Late game pushes on Western Europe can be supplemented with unit buys dropped in Brazil (like an inf, tank and tpt) as they can hit the very next turn.

Also extreme but doable is 3 bombers in brazil to hit WEU the next turn as well.