bump to get rid of spam post
UK Basics
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The UK presents an interesting dilemma for the Allies because their empire is spread out over the entire world. So you want to use a strategy that you think will maximize those units (already on the board) potential while you allow yourself the time to build up your army/navy from London and move out from there.
For the purpose of the basics I’m going to assume that any bid went to Germany and was placed in Afr. I’ll also assume that Russia attacked Wrus, Wrus/Belo, or Wrus/Ukr and Germany successfully countered leaving only Wrus in Russian hands.
UK’s opening moves will also depend on Germany’s other attacks as well as their purchases, NCM, and placements, so we’ll have to take this in a few steps, first Germany bought some naval units such as an AC or moved their Med fleet to sz 13 and second Germany bought all land/air.
While I do think a German naval buy/fleet unification threat/Sealion threat can make its own article it is still fairly common to see Germany at least buy defensively for Sz 5 with an AC purchase so the UK should at the very least be prepared for that scenerio.
In this case attacking the fleet in Sz 5 is out of the question on UK 1 and Germany can also threaten a minor unification with any ships in Sz 13 or a small scale attack on London. So, the UK first and foremost must protect London but with the units already there and a couple US units that can arrive on US 1 it makes Sealion very hard for Germany to pull off. This means you are free to buy whatever you want assuming you won’t be sending all your troops to Alg. I like to bypass going to Alg on UK 1 and buy at least 1 ftr and then some combination of ships, typically something along the lines of 1 ftr, 1 dd, 1 trn (or sub) and then unify my Allied fleets in Sz 8. With the sub/dd/ftr buy and US reinforcements and good purchasing you can make any minor unification/sealion threat futile. It may slow you down a bit in Afr, but the US can really help there but the good news is the UK/US combo should be able to kill the all German ships in Rd 2. The UK takes the brunt of the losses in one or 2 rds of attack while the US can finish the Germans off.
If there is no minor unification move the UK should be set to go to Afr on Rd 2 or simply box in the German navy in Sz 5 by having the combined Allied fleet move to Sz 6 and then you can deal with it at your leisure, usually rds 3 thru 5, when you can add more ftrs for your attack and the US is in position to help you out as well.
There is actually quite a lot of options, which is why this probably deserves its own article.
Now for the case where Germany bought all land/air, you are safe to buy any combination of unit types. I like to go air heavy with the Allies early and sink an unreinforce Sz 5 fleet on UK 2. I don’t like to risk my UK air on the Rd 1 attack of the German fleet. It is certainly a viable option but I just don’t think it is a risk you have to take. I prefer to add some air on UK 1 and overwhelm the German navy in rd 2 (assuming they didn’t add to it on G2).
I might buy something like this, 2 ftrs, 2 inf, 1 rt, but I think 3 ftrs, 1 ftr + navy, or even navy + land are all viable and really comes down to how much help you can expect from the US and where are they going to be moving their ships/troops.As for British Combat Moves, I don’t think think the British have any “must attacks” in Rd 1 but they could have some nice targets. Any lingering lone German ships should be picked off, Alg is a safe landing spot if your ships are safe from attack in Rd 2 and you expect the US to reinforce you. Egy is a nice target too, but I tend to leave that since it is easily countered on G2 and now you’ve weakend your defenses against Japan and Germany still has access to Afr after G2. I don’t think it is bad to counter Egy if there is only 1-2 unit there but I also don’t think it is a must attack.
In the Pacific the British have all sorts of options as well such as sub vs. sub at the Sol Is., DD vs. trn in sz 59, they can even make a strike at some of Japan’s islands or increase the Sol attack with a ftr and then reinforce Pearl. Agian this could probably be its own article and even lead into a KJF, but I think a good basic move that gives you a lot of options on your future turns is to unify your fleets in Sz 30. This puts Japan in kind of a difficult position in that if they attack they have to divert a lot of air and can leave any survivors somewhat far away from any action in the next round or two.
If they don’t attack then you can grab your inf from Aus and reinforce Africa or the Middle East from the the East as well as from the West (thru Alg/Lib). Any early gains by Germany can be nuetralized by your trns and starting Inf from Trj/Per/Ind, which is why I like to hold off on the Egy counter.For Non-Combat, it really depends on what your overall Allied strategy is but I think stacking Per with at least 4 inf and an AA, moving the Bom to Cauc, ftrs to Wrus (if not needed to defend London), the Pac fleet to Sz 30, and your Altantic fleet to Sz 12 (or 8 if you didn’t attack Alg) all set up the UK and provide them the opportunity to deter attacks and defend their vast empire for the early rounds as you build up and gradually expand from London.
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I found this one really hard to write, just b/c the UK is so spread out and I think you can really make 2-3 articles out of it. There is the whole German navy issue, Afr, and the Pac moves which could all probably be their own articles.
I may go back and fine tune a few points, but I think most of the content I wanted is in there and I don’t really want to expand on it much more since it is supposed to be basics.
Edit: Plus I wrote this at work, so I’m sure I’ll have to do at least a little editting to it, but I wanted to get something posted.
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Nice start, Darth!
What if the Baltic attempts to run away immediately on G1? Would you then be forced to attack it before it slips away? Or would you let it slide into the med?
And when you combine fleets in SZ30, do you think it to be wise to say…take 2 inf with you? It might make it a juicy target, but the Japanese would lose a lot of gear in attacking that fleet. The pro is that you can get your inf from Aus to India or Africa 2 turns earlier, the con is if the Japanese decide to attack then 2 inf got lost out at sea, but remember that’s a pretty risky Japanese move.
Also, the way I was trained to play, it should be possible to play the UK without buying things like dds or subs. I like fighters instead of that, or transports for fodder. DDs/subs aren’t dual use units; they are only good at sea. Fighters are great at sea as well as land, for instance.
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Good start Darth.
The sz 59 is important.
Countering AE also, depends of what G units that survived the G1 attack.
The most important options that UK must make, is, AE, Persia, stacking India, attack on Borneo and/or New Guinea.
The UK sub in pac might as well attack the Jap sub.
If G moves Baltic fleet to WE, UK should attack it with everything.
AA gun in India should always move to Persia and then to Cauc, Russia needs it in WRU usually.
Sometimes UK should merge with US in Algeria, but usually to attack WE UK1 is too early. -
Egypt can be important if Germany’s left a couple of unprotected tanks there. You’re trading infantry for armor and preventing a blitz of Africa at the same time.
SZ 59, in most cases, I think is a waste of resources. You are throwing away, on average, a destroyer and a carrier for a transport. (Most send a destroyer and a carrier to ensure the transport dies, Japan can easily counter using a battleship to absorb a hit if you get one.) I don’t know who decided 28 IPC in naval units was a good trade for 8 IPC in naval units, especially when England now has to build those same 28 IPC back in England now.
I think, in most games, the best idea is to send the Transport and Submarine from SZ 40 east. (Maybe picking up the infantry from New Zealand on the way.) Send the destroyer and carrier west (with transport if you don’t hit Egypt, without if you do.) The Fighter can go to Pearl or with the carrier depending on if you need it to kill German tanks in Egypt or not.
In three rounds you’ll have brought a submarine, 2 transports, destroyer and carrier to the British fleet, fleshing it out entirely with no added investments and making it a viable fighting force all by itself allowing the British and Americans to split.
Or, using the British fleet alone to work on Germany and sending the Americans off to heckle the Japanese.
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I don’t know who decided 28 IPC in naval units was a good trade for 8 IPC in naval units, especially when England now has to build those same 28 IPC back in England now.
The reasoning is simple, you can’t wait 5 turns for those units in order to go to Norway. You seem to build a carrier/sub on Round 1 so it’s not even like you’re waiting for those units, is it? It’s an opportunity thing. I wouldn’t throw them away if they were close by, but they are rather far. Also it forces the Japanese to throw their East Indies fleet at it, instead of using those fighters to secure China or kill the tran in SZ34 or use an extra fighter for Pearl.
I like Darth’s reasoning for the naval unification in SZ30; it does allow for flexibility in countering Africa/India.
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@Cmdr:
Egypt can be important if Germany’s left a couple of unprotected tanks there. You’re trading infantry for armor and preventing a blitz of Africa at the same time.
SZ 59, in most cases, I think is a waste of resources. You are throwing away, on average, a destroyer and a carrier for a transport. (Most send a destroyer and a carrier to ensure the transport dies, Japan can easily counter using a battleship to absorb a hit if you get one.) I don’t know who decided 28 IPC in naval units was a good trade for 8 IPC in naval units, especially when England now has to build those same 28 IPC back in England now.
I think, in most games, the best idea is to send the Transport and Submarine from SZ 40 east. (Maybe picking up the infantry from New Zealand on the way.) Send the destroyer and carrier west (with transport if you don’t hit Egypt, without if you do.) The Fighter can go to Pearl or with the carrier depending on if you need it to kill German tanks in Egypt or not.
In three rounds you’ll have brought a submarine, 2 transports, destroyer and carrier to the British fleet, fleshing it out entirely with no added investments and making it a viable fighting force all by itself allowing the British and Americans to split.
Or, using the British fleet alone to work on Germany and sending the Americans off to heckle the Japanese.
Technically u r right, Jennifer, but many games end by the time UK can get the Pac fleet to Europe, WE/Norway.
At least sz 7, that takes 4 rnds. Germany usually closes the med through AE, in rare cases that G don’t
attack AE then it’s probably a good idea to move all UK naval units to the med asap.
In a 10 rnd game u will use the UK pac fleet in Europe for about 6 rnds, that’s nice, and u can save some ipc
on navy, buying ftrs etc, and only a few boats until the fleet is brought back home. Point is that many games ends much
sooner, so it’s hard to say if it’s a good move to save the UK pac fleet rather than sacrificing it in order to slow Jap down. -
@Bean:
I don’t know who decided 28 IPC in naval units was a good trade for 8 IPC in naval units, especially when England now has to build those same 28 IPC back in England now.
The reasoning is simple, you can’t wait 5 turns for those units in order to go to Norway. You seem to build a carrier/sub on Round 1 so it’s not even like you’re waiting for those units, is it? It’s an opportunity thing. I wouldn’t throw them away if they were close by, but they are rather far. Also it forces the Japanese to throw their East Indies fleet at it, instead of using those fighters to secure China or kill the tran in SZ34 or use an extra fighter for Pearl.
I like Darth’s reasoning for the naval unification in SZ30; it does allow for flexibility in countering Africa/India.
Well, to be truthful, I built the British fleet up in our game because I need my Pac fleet for the Pac!
In most of my games, I sail my fleet home while focusing on Africa. Then, when unified on UK 4, I move up north to help against Germany there. By then, I have Americans entering Caucasus every round. (Algeria on US 1, Libya on US 2, Egypt on US 3, Trans-Jordan on US 4, Persia on US 5 which is when the UK fleet moves to SZ 6, invasions of Karelia with England and Caucasus with America every turn from then on.)
Not to mention, Algeria and Libya are in England’s pocket since it’s invaded by England first, then America. Also puts direct pressure on Japan not to put ICs in India and FIC.
Sure, Japan gets a transport. And I’m not saying not to hit the sub in SZ 45 with the British fighter and land it in SZ 52, just saying, the SZ 59 transport, while nice, really isn’t the best move in my opinion.
Maybe if you moved everything there, and got good dice on the counter attack. DD/AC/Fig/TRN can be formidable if hit too lightly. But Japan’s got two battleships that they don’t need for Pearl which can be easily used to sink you in SZ 45 without loss.
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I think you should comment something about IC builds.
An India IC needs going for z59 and landing all possible reinforcments at India (thus not attacking Egypt). Also need a IC at Sinkiang plus siberian forces to survive.
Unification fleet is good if you want an Australia IC. Then you should not attack z59.
IC at Safr is good if you cannot send reinforcements to Africa and germans cannot conquer Safr in a couple of turns
All should be purchased on UK 1 … or Colonial Garrison, of course :-D
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If KJF starts on UK 2, then I go with the Indian Industrial Complex. If KJF starts on UK 4 then I forgo an industrial complex at all, or I build one in Australia when it’s liberated. (Very rare.)
Reason being, those 4 rounds means England’s already down a lot of cash and needs what it can get to bolster Russia. Since Japan’s now had a few rounds to actually get some Russian land from them before having to come full circle back and protect against America and England.
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I think for these sorts of articles it’s a good idea to give short term goals, such as first make sure you capital doesn’t fall, then make sure your navy won’t die, then make sure Africa doesn’t go down, then make sure the German navy dies, then make sure you land troops into N. Europe every round after that. Something like that. It can be very difficult and time-consuming to go through all the specific details of how to do it, but the overall goal should be mentioned more clearly.
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@Bean:
I think for these sorts of articles it’s a good idea to give short term goals, such as first make sure you capital doesn’t fall, then make sure your navy won’t die, then make sure Africa doesn’t go down, then make sure the German navy dies, then make sure you land troops into N. Europe every round after that. Something like that. It can be very difficult and time-consuming to go through all the specific details of how to do it, but the overall goal should be mentioned more clearly.
Agreed. UK1 already depends so heavily on what happened in R1 and G1, that writing about what to do at any point after UK1 is pretty pointless. Is it safe to land in Norway/Karelia/Archangel? What happened in Egypt? Did Germany buy a baltic fleet? Where is the Luftwaffe? Did Germany sink the Z1 TRN?
Also agreed that the UK navy in the Pac is somewhat low-value because it is so far away from the main action, so it can be worth sacrificing some pieces, since otherwise they won’t do anything for you for quite a while.
Z59: I just send a DD - the extra 16 IPCs of an AC is not worth a higher chance of killing the TRN.
Z45: try to kill the Jap sub with your sub
Now Japan has to deal with your DD and sub possibly, so their J1 resources are stretched a little thinner.Anglo-Egypt: If occupied by one or two German tanks, try to kill the tanks by TRNing units from India. Pull out the AA to Persia. If AE is not possible to re-take, move Per Inf to India and India should stand for J1, assuming the Z59 TRN is dead.
WCan - Leave the Inf there just to help deter a Jap attack.
Purchase - it seems that 3 Ftrs is a good option for UK1, but TRN and ground units may be an option if the Luftwaffe is not in range of Z3/Z4.
Merge remaining Pac fleet in Z30, or move the TRN toward the Atlantic and the other units to between Madagascar and Kenya.
Beyond UK1, you just have to apply your basic strategy to figure out what to do. By UK2 so much can change.
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I disagree that it is pointless. Yes they are sort of short term goals, but you can usually see out about 3 rounds, so you should be able to setup a good baseline strat and something where you aren’t going to cost yourself the game.
For example, I can open with the same UK 1 every game regardless of what happens on R1 or G1. I can do this b/c I simply assume the worst. And the early worst case for UK is a threaten of Sealion or fleet Unification since that would put London in danger immediately. But this is fairly easy to counter, and I find the counter to that doesn’t really hurt you even if Germany doesn’t threaten that move(s). Thus it is a good open regardless of R1 or G1.
The easiest UK open IMO, is to send the Atlantic fleet to Sz 8 (place any new ships there place new ftrs on UK, unify fleet in Sz 30, and Non-Com all Mid-East troops to Per.
But I didn’t want to write just a two line article. :-)
IMO it is a waste to counter Egy and to mess with Japan (sz 59) but I didn’t want to get too heavy into “what I do” for a basics article or come across as preaching a “this is the only way to open and win…” I more wanted to set up the various scenerios, give some brief ideas to think about, and keep it pretty general b/c you can really set up an article for all three different UK openings:
1) What does the UK do if - Ger buys no navy
2) What does the UK do if - Ger threatens Sealion/Fleet Unification
3) What does the UK do if they go KJFPretty much everything UK can do is a variation of one of those 3 scenerios, but I think to try and fit all those in one article is a bit much.
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The KJF seems to be a neverending story….
A basic strat article should, imo, not include tech or NA’s. This should be included later.
Same goes for strats that may work better or worse with different rules.
It’s fully possible that KJF works with NA’s, but not with “common” game settings.
Same goes for India IC. You will not be able no keep it, if Jap wants it.
If someone plays with tech on, this will change the game, but only to make more randomness.
General strats have little do with tech or no tech, LL or ads. But NA’s thats a different story.
A strat article should state what game settings is included in the premise of the strat article.Jennifer, you seem to have KJF and India IC on your mind.
Darth, a good introduction, but already it seems everyone totally disagrees on all details, and also on the general strats.
The caspian sub papers are good enough, although they are very thin. It’s for players who are new to revised.
This is a good attempt to write some serious stuff that might help many players to improve their game, regardless weather
they’re decent or newbs.I cannot understand that a top player claims that countering AE is not important. And we all know how much or little UK
can bring to AE UK1. So it depends on the situation. You also claim that sz 59 is unimportant. Why??Sometimes I get the impression that people on this forum play don’t play the same game as I do :?
Some players here are good and some are not so good. I wish I was really good, because it’s fun to play, but winning
is the most funny part. Thats why I try to learn from players that are better than me.
All those discussions about strats and what to buy etc, BB’s rulez ehh??
What rules, what settings, and what game do you guys play??? -
I cannot understand that a top player claims that countering AE is not important. And we all know how much or little UK
can bring to AE UK1. So it depends on the situation. You also claim that sz 59 is unimportant. Why??For Egy, Unimportant might be a bit strong, but I’ve played plenty of games where a counter was impossible due to bid and Ger rolled up on G1, and yet in those games I’ve not necessarily had trouble as the Allies. Thus if Germany takes with only 1-2 arm left over and I leave it, it shouldn’t be a problem since I’ve already dealt with a worst case with them taking with 1-2 inf, 2-3 arm leftover.
IMO it can be bad to throw away 3 UK inf that are just going to be killed on G2. Even if two UK inf survive the counter, Germany counters with 3 inf, 1 rt, bb-shot (maybe a plane), and if 1 inf survives and UK defended trj then Germany can counter both and now UK has ZERO troops left in the Middle East (assuming Japan picks off the last guy on J1 or J2). To counter Egy on UK1 means you essentially concede the ME to the Axis on Rd 2.
For Sz 59, I just think it is a bad trade to trade DD for trn when you can unite in Sz 30 and force Japan to commit captial ships and kill off ftrs or leave you with 1 sub, 2 trns, 1 dd, 1 ac, 1 ftr in the Indian Ocean. Turn two you pull the 3 inf form Aus and if you stacked Per (instead of counter Egy) you have a darn good sized army that can threaten Egy, Per, Ind, and Iea.
Any gains Germany made by blitzing around are quickly wiped out on UK 2 or 3 OR they defend Egy pretty heavy which means they didn’t blitz around b/c they saw on UK 2 you can move your sz 30 fleet to sz 34 (instead of Aus) and pick up 4 inf in Per and counter Egy or Trj or Iea on Rd 2.
It may not work every game but a stack of 4-5 inf in Per and a fleet in Sz 30 can put enough of a scare into Germany where they may not blitz around Afr and in this case you’ve held much of Afr without sacrificing 3 inf and the Middle East. Sometimes the threat of attack is worth more than the attack itself.
I’m sure I’ve made enough players scream when they take Egy with maybe 2 armor left, then I stack Per and move to sz 30 so they blitz a couple ter on G2 but move their arm back to Egy and stack with ~3 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm only to see me pick up 3 more inf in Aus on UK 2. I’ve just contained Afr and all it cost me was Egy for a rd or 2 which Ger gets anyway and another two 1 ipc territories next to Egy. Why waste the 3 inf in the Egy counter when you don’t have to?
EDIT:
I don’t play with Techs or NA’s and it is probably safe to assume most people don’t include those things when talking strat around here unless they delibrately say they use Tech or NA somewhere in their initial post.
Our tournaments and League games are all LHTR, 9 VC, No Tech, No NA, and blind bidding with no restrictions on placement (so 3 inf to Ukr or 3 inf to Lib is in play), common bid ranges are 7-9.
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Lucifer,
I only brought up the Indian IC because it was mentioned before my post. For basic England strat, I would never suggest building an Industrial Complex.
Anyway, as for Egypt it’s a compromise. If you can kill some high value German tanks and make landings in Algeria safer, I go for it. If there’s little chance of success, then I do not.
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Well Darth, now I see your points more clearly.
Africa is really important for UK, to let G have Afr during several rnds, this helps axis win the game.
To goal to secure Afr is obvious, how to secure Afr is not so obvious, and it’s also obvious that if G got lots of units to AE
G1, then UK have to move units from India/Persia towards AE, or from Algeria and Libya to take AE UK2. Generally I think it’s best to let
US take responsibility for securing Afr. UK needs to help Russia, as much as possible, and as fast as possible.
As for all strats, they don’t work if the player conducts “bad combat” on the small scale.The sz59 attack I think is important, and to look only at tuv trade is not optimal imo.
UK doesn’t need any DD’s anyway. The only situations where I would not attack sz59, is if G don’t attack AE.
The DD attack at sz59 is clearly done only to slow Jap down a bit. To kill a trans isn’t much, but every little attack can
possibly help, even if the trade in one battle is bad.I had situations where I did approx. 50 tuv damage to my opponent,
but it was clearly a Pyrrhic victory, I also have done battles and lost well over 50 tuv, but battle helped me win the game. -
Lucifer:
What’s more important?
A) Killing the Transport in SZ 59
B) Sending your Fighter to SZ 52 to defend
C) Retaking Egypt
D) Combining the unmolested, undamaged British fleet in SZ 22 on Round 3
E) C&D
F) A&B -
@Cmdr:
Lucifer:
What’s more important?
A) Killing the Transport in SZ 59
B) Sending your Fighter to SZ 52 to defend
C) Retaking Egypt
D) Combining the unmolested, undamaged British fleet in SZ 22 on Round 3
E) C&D
F) A&BAs UK I never send ftr to 52.
I always do the 59 attack unless G don’t attack AE G1.
If I can retake AE UK1 with 1 ftr + 3 inf, eventually with bmr, then I do it if BC says above 70% for
1 land unit to survive, if G has 2 tanks or less in AE, I attack AE UK1.
Sz 22? Brazil is not usually an issue in my games…not rnd 3 and neither rnd 10 or 20.
In most of the games I play, the important battles and moves happens before rnd 4-5.
I really don’t see that bringing navy stuff to home waters helps much, it takes too long, and I don’t
need naval protection from rnd 4-5, I need it from UK1-UK3.Can you use the UK pac navy to stop axis from merging fleets in med?
If so, then I would like to hear some suggestions. My experience is that US must close the med by securing AE, UK
usually can’t do it alone. -
British fleet unification in SZ 22 is the Transport/Submarine from SZ 40 and the Carrier, Destroyer from SZ 35. From there you can move it north or back into the Pacific.
It’s not meant to protect Brazil. :P
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