Nit picky German Economizer

Ya know, Switch, if Germany had an AC purchase on G1, you could just blockade the UK/USSR fleet in SZ 4, denying them the ability to land troops ANYWHERE and then use the German navy to sink England.  Or, better yet, get UK to attack the German fleet with BB, TRN, 2 FIG, 1 BMB vs 2 SS, 1 TRN, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DD. WEG

I think I finally found motivation to build carriers with Germany again.  :evil:

@Bean:

I think I finally found motivation to build carriers with Germany again.

Finally I got you convinced

Well, in part. :P  Russia would have to leave Archangelsk open. :)

@Cmdr:

Ya know, Switch, if Germany had an AC purchase on G1, you could just blockade the UK/USSR fleet in SZ 4, denying them the ability to land troops ANYWHERE and then use the German navy to sink England.  Or, better yet, get UK to attack the German fleet with BB, TRN, 2 FIG, 1 BMB vs 2 SS, 1 TRN, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DD. WEG

I think I finally found motivation to build carriers with Germany again.  :evil:

I can see how G1 move and purchase could prevent an Allied landing in Algeria or Europe, and have done so myself.

However, the only way to “sink England” on G2 is to sacrifice at least the German Baltic fleet - and even then, considerable German sacrifices need be made, assuming the UK player is not incompetent.

If you debate this, please describe your exact G1 purchases and moves following a Russian opening of either Belorussia/West Russia or Ukraine/West Russia with Russian sub joining the UK battleship and transport northwest of UK.

Well, what can England possibly have in SZ 3 on UK 1 that Germany would attack?

2 Transports, 2 Fighters, Battleship, Carrier, Destroyer, Russian Submarine, right?

Best possible the Germans can expect to have, reasonably, on G2 to attack that with is 2 Submarines, Destroyer, Transport, 5 Fighters, Bomber.

You should be able to sink the entire enemy fleet with reasonable fighter losses.

26 Punch Attacking, 22 Punch Defending

Attacker: 4 Hits
Defender: 3 Hits

Attacker: Destroyer, 5 Fighters, Bomber - 19 Punch - 3 Hits
Defender: dBattleship, Carrier, 2 Fighters - 15 Punch - 3 Hits

Attacker: 3 Fighters, Bomber - 13 Punch - 2 Hits
Defender: dBattleship - 4 Punch - 1 Hit

Germany wins with 2 Fighters, Bomber and England has no fleet now.  That means they need to build air force AND capitol ships to defend their transports before they can build transports. (Or at least it locks America’s capitols in the North Atlantic protecting British transports.)

As for Germany’s losses?  That’s easily recovered if you want to build fighters instead of tanks, tanks being an item I don’t normally use as Germany too often anyway.

Just to be clear, even if the UK does not liberate Archangel, Russia can likely handle trading three territories (esp. if the German stack is in Karelia, far from Ukraine)

And, even if they can’t handle all three, my other point was that Russia still gets to kill a tank, even if it has to forego killing an Inf in order to do that. No amount of stack in Karelia will prevent Russia from sending 2 Inf 1 Ftr to kill the German tank.

But in terms of a UK fleet in Z4, if Germany attacks it all out with air, that means it has no air units to trade territories with. Two or three of its air units are likely in Africa where they can’t reach Z4 anyway.

So assuming you forgo trading land territories (unlikely for Germany to do), you have maybe 4 air units attacking, which will score two hits, absorbed by the BB and the sub. The Allied fleet meanwhile is likely to kill a German Fighter, and another one in round 2 of the battle. So maybe you sink some ships but you also lose a couple air units. I’m not sure it’s worth it.\

But at the end of a day, you’ve exposed a tank without fodder to hold a 2 IPC territory. Simple as that.

You guys are lucky that you can’t take territory with fighters and bombers, because I doubt I could convince you that grabbing free territory with THOSE units would be a bad idea. (“But the Ftr defends at 4, so it would probably kill at least 4 attacking Inf before it died, and Russia would be WAY overextended…”)

5 IPC tank to take 2 IPC territory.

@ Jennifer - how did UK fleet end up in Z3? No one is talking about that, that has nothing to do with the Arc blitz. Give NPB his pipe back.

Ender:

I was replying to NBP’s comments about sinking England on G2.

Anyway, I think you are forgetting that even with a Karelian stack with Germany, there is still a baby E. Europe stack.  At least enough to allow Germany to strafe England and kill some Russian tanks without much jeapordy to her own tanks.

That means, no matter what Russia does, her tanks are going to die somewhere if she tries for all 3, and if she only goes for 2 then Germany gets a free collection of one of them next round.

@Ender:

@ Jennifer - how did UK fleet end up in Z3?

UK would have to be smoking something . . .

@Gamer:

@Ender:

@ Jennifer - how did UK fleet end up in Z3?

UK would have to be smoking something . . .

Or UK really, REALLY wanted to land in unoccupied Norway and didn’t think to at least block the transport, submarine with the Russian submarine.

@Cmdr:

Ender:

I was replying to NBP’s comments about sinking England on G2.

Hey, YOU’RE the one that said you were going to “sink England”, Jen.

I’m the one that said Germany would have to pay in blood.

@Cmdr:

@Gamer:

@Ender:

@ Jennifer - how did UK fleet end up in Z3?

UK would have to be smoking something . . .

Or UK really, REALLY wanted to land in unoccupied Norway and didn’t think to at least block the transport, submarine with the Russian submarine.

So now your position is that the Allies would at LEAST have to make a mistake to lose the UK fleet as early as G2, yes?

So - if I understand correctly - then you now concur that the Germans will NOT be blowing up the UK fleet on G2.

–

Anyways, I’m a bit interested to see how you reconcile a G1 carrier with your proposed G1 all-infantry buy in another thread.  What DO you advocate as the G1 builds, and under what circumstances, Jen?

@Cmdr:

@Gamer:

@Ender:

@ Jennifer - how did UK fleet end up in Z3?

UK would have to be smoking something . . .

Or UK really, REALLY wanted to land in unoccupied Norway and didn’t think to at least block the transport, submarine with the Russian submarine.

Jenn, the only thing that blocks a sub is a destroyer.  The Russian sub is useless to block the sz5 subs from hitting sz3.

Yea, Gamer, I mistyped.  I meant to say Transport, Destroyer.

And I’ve always said that it would cost Germany to sink the British fleet.  Never said otherwise.  However, I then, and now, and probably will until LHTR gives England a destroyer in home waters, support the idea of sink it if you can cause it’s cheaper for you, Germany, to recover then for England!

After a full day of discussion…

My point was specifically in response to Dan’s counter about the UK liberating Archangel, and the destruction of the UK Fleet in SZ FOUR, not SZ3.

@ncscswitch:

After a full day of discussion…

My point was specifically in response to Dan’s counter about the UK liberating Archangel, and the destruction of the UK Fleet in SZ FOUR, not SZ3.

Roger that, and I think I responded - To kill the UK fleet in Z4 you need to commit a lot of air, of which the first two hits will be absorbed by sub + BB. A third hit will kill a TRN.

Germany needs its air for other things I think, but I agree, the UK fleet is vulnerable in Z4 on G2, it might take some damage, but it would also take out some fighters.

I’m starting to think that these discussions are pointless. This game can change so much in a single turn, and it’s usually impossible to foresee everything that will happen even two turns (not rounds) into the future. I can spend over an hour just analyzing what to do with a single move, and still be unsure as to what will happen next. You can’t predict either the dice or how your opponent will respond.

So, knowing that, and then to read Jenn’s posts where she spells out exactly what will happen over the course of 3-4 game rounds with dead certainty, how this country will have these islands, this country will have 20+ infantry in all of its territories, it just seems a little silly. Maybe others are doing it too but after reading Jenn’s essays I have to go to the grocery store to restock my salt cellar…

It’s just endless. I’m for testing things where the dice hit the cardboard. Its seems like all of these threads its just the same nonsense - no one is learning anything from anyone, and everyone is dead certain that they’re right.

I always learn something reading the threads.
And this also has been useful, for me.

Ender:

Why does Germany need to kill the SZ 4 British fleet???  It can, I guess.  But wouldnt it be more effective to move Carrier, 2 Fighters, 2 Submarines, Transport and Destroyer to SZ 3 and cut it off forcing it to attack you?

Having the UK attack the German Fleet in SZ3 allows the UK to use both their fleet AND their air force, increasing the punch of their attack by nearly double.

Attacking the UK fleet in SZ4 does increase their defensive punch compared to making them go on the offensive, but also allows Germany to deal with only the Naval units instead of both the Royal Navy and the RAF at the same time as would occur in SZ3.

@ncscswitch:

Having the UK attack the German Fleet in SZ3 allows the UK to use both their fleet AND their air force, increasing the punch of their attack by nearly double.

Attacking the UK fleet in SZ4 does increase their defensive punch compared to making them go on the offensive, but also allows Germany to deal with only the Naval units instead of both the Royal Navy and the RAF at the same time as would occur in SZ3.

Nice analysis, Switch.  I personally think that the best use of the Baltic fleet in the case that Britain goes to sz4 is to use one of your subs to block that fleet from loading troops from UK the following turn.  Why get your whole Baltic fleet killed?  It’s useful for protecting your back door until you build up your infantry screen.  Bottom line, don’t waste your fleet for no good reason.