• @Lucifer:

    It suprises me that someone actually believes that the tank blitz to Arch. is important.
    A game to decide who is right???
    You’re all arguing weather it’s 0.5, -1, -2 etc….
    There are many more stupid or clever moves which will be done in any game, than the tank blitz to Arch.
    Get real.

    Agreed.

    It all boils down to a flip of the coin anyways… 50% it’s a good move (tank hits)
    50% it’s a bad move (tank misses)

    If I lose because of one tank hitting / missing…I might as well give up playing this whacky game.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yes, I give up trying to impart wisdom and sanity upon the insane and unwise.

    You are actually trying to say that it is more important for Germany to save 1 IPC when they can cost the Russians 1 IPC.  Let’s see, what is greater 1/40 or 1/24?

    Which is of stronger use, 1 German Armor in E. Europe or 2 Russian Infantry in W. Russia?

    Which is more valuable?  1 German Armor which can be lost three times over before actually starting to hamper the German economy on replacement units or 1 Russian Infantry that cannot be replaced without being a drain on their economy?

    See why your petty little “well in this ONE extreme case scenario I am cherry picking out of 24 million possible games, your blitz is stupid” arguments don’t bear any weight with me?  You fail to consider opportunity cost, actual cost netted from BOTH sides and loss of opportunity cost of the enemy.

    Hell, I can make the same argument!  Let’s just pretend that there is no England and Germany starts with all of Africa.  Isn’t it much better to move all your infantry out of Western Europe and attack Russia faster!?!  (Same argument, on a larger scale to show the ridiculousness of the arguments you seem to be proffering by cherry picking one situation, the worst possible one that’s got the worst odds of happening, as your main line of attack on an idea.)


  • @Cmdr:

    Yes, I give up trying to impart wisdom and sanity upon the insane and unwise.

    You are actually trying to say that it is more important for Germany to save 1 IPC when they can cost the Russians 1 IPC.  Let’s see, what is greater 1/40 or 1/24?

    Which is of stronger use, 1 German Armor in E. Europe or 2 Russian Infantry in W. Russia?

    Which is more valuable?  1 German Armor which can be lost three times over before actually starting to hamper the German economy on replacement units or 1 Russian Infantry that cannot be replaced without being a drain on their economy?

    See why your petty little “well in this ONE extreme case scenario I am cherry picking out of 24 million possible games, your blitz is stupid” arguments don’t bear any weight with me?  You fail to consider opportunity cost, actual cost netted from BOTH sides and loss of opportunity cost of the enemy.

    Hell, I can make the same argument!  Let’s just pretend that there is no England and Germany starts with all of Africa.  Isn’t it much better to move all your infantry out of Western Europe and attack Russia faster!?!  (Same argument, on a larger scale to show the ridiculousness of the arguments you seem to be proffering by cherry picking one situation, the worst possible one that’s got the worst odds of happening, as your main line of attack on an idea.)

    Lol.  But that’s your USUAL argument, Jen!

    MY wonderful shiny explanation INCLUDED economic AND opportunity cost.

    Anyways, I don’t notice you offering to take up Ender (frood)'s challenge, Jen.

    (makes chicken noises)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I challenged him too.  I don’t see him taking me up.  Guess his bluff has been called.

  • Moderator

    Observe:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=10332.0

    Russia Round 1

    Combat Move

    Buy 3 inf, 3 arm

    1. Wrus - 3 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm vs. 9 inf (3 kar, 3 arch, 3 mos), 2 rt (1 cauc, 1 mos), 2 arm (1 arch, 1 mos), 2 ftrs (1 kar, 1 mos)

    Results

    wrus - taken with 3 inf, 2 rt, 2 arm

    Non-Combat Move

    2 ftrs land in cauc
    2 inf to wrus from cauc
    2 inf to cauc from kaz
    2 inf to mos from novo
    2 inf to mos from eve
    2 inf to novo from yak
    2 inf to sfe from bury
    2 inf to yak from sfe
    1 arm to cauc from mos
    1 sub to sz 2 from sz 4
    1 aa to wrus from mos

    Placement

    3 inf, 1 arm on Cauc
    2 arm on Mos

    Collect 26

    Germany 1:

    (Sorely tempted to hit W. Russia, but I wont.)

    Buy(40):

    • 10 Infantry
    • Fighter

    Combat Moves:

    Armor from E. Europe to Karelia - BLITZ Archangelsk

    Russia Round 2

    Buy 7 inf, 1 arm

    Combat Move

    1)  Ukr - 1 inf vs. 3 inf (cauc), 1 ftr (cauc)
    2)  Belo - 1 inf vs. 2 inf (wrus), 1 ftr (cauc)
    3)  Kar - 1 inf vs. 2 inf (wrus), 1 rt (wrus)
    4)  Arch - 1 arm vs. 2 inf (mos), 3 arm (2 mos, 1 wrus)

    Results

    ukr - taken, wol
    belo - taken, wol
    kar - taken with 1 inf, 1 rt
    arch - taken, wol

    Non-Combat Move

    2 ftrs land in cauc
    1 sub to sz 8 from sz 2
    1 aa to mos from wrus
    2 inf to wrus from mos
    2 inf to wrus from cauc
    1 arm to cauc from wrus
    2 inf to mos from novo
    3 inf to novo from yak

    Placement

    4 inf on Cauc
    3 inf, 1 arm on Mos

    Collect 30

    Comments:
    No added risk to Russia, no forces were diverted away from Germany, infact as NPB and others point out you are allowed to use Russian troops in Moscow for an attack as they move to the front lines and you do not weaken any of your attacks.  You trade inf for Arm and in this case it was German armor for nothing.  Adv. Russia.

  • Moderator

    I have a follow up point as well.

    Lets say you have a US armor in Moscow and both Novo and Sin are Japanese (but empty), and Japan has inf in Chi and arm in Fic etc.

    Would you Blitz your US armor all the way to Sin?
    No, of course not.


  • A couple of quick comments:

    1.  Tri, you are mis-quoting me when you post

    Even Switch has implicitly accepted this because the only argument he has left is “positioning.”

    What I said was that the difference comes down to who you give ‘credit’ to for taking Karelia

    2.  On Darth’s game post…
      A.  I have said previously that this move can be VERY effective combined with a German Karelia Stack, which did not happen in the game you posted.  If it had, the Archangel Counter that Russia executed would be a suicide move.
      B.  Yes, the ARM missed, that happens, and when it does, it is less effective move.
      C.  Russia should likely lose 6 INF, 1 ART on the German counter.

    3.  As for the Sinkiang blitz… I might… depends on the rest of the game board.  :evil:

  • Moderator

    Back when I was still attacking Ukr…   :wink:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=9354.0

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’ve spoken my mind on this.  If you don’t believe me, then feel free to be less economical with Germany then if you listened to it.  This isn’t a thread about preserving units, it’s a thread about being as economical as possible.  +0.5 is more economical then +0.0.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    I challenged him too.  I don’t see him taking me up.  Guess his bluff has been called.

    I’m sorry, please quote the post in which you challenged me, because I missed it. My last challenge to you was at noon today, it’s a little early to say you’ve called my bluff! Check the tournament games section, I’ve just started a game thread.

    @Cmdr:

    I’ve spoken my mind on this.  If you don’t believe me, then feel free to be less economical with Germany then if you listened to it.  This isn’t a thread about preserving units, it’s a thread about being as economical as possible.  +0.5 is more economical then +0.0.

    2ndly, I don’t think anyone in this thread has demonstrated that the Karelia blitz alone is +0. You tank-blitz Karelia and you get 2 IPCs, no?

    And what is the difference between being economical and preserving units?

    I realize that by asking three questions that put you in a corner, I’ll probably not get a response to either of them.

    So, to get the first question out of the way, I’m just going to start a game thread. What bid would you like? I consider anywhere from 7-9 to be reasonable (though I’ve never been in a game with a bid higher than 8 ).

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    reply 164

    “I’ll just have to blitz you in our next games to drive the point home that it’s a good move for Germany and a bad move for Russia!”

    Net 0.

    You lose it without any defense and thus you net nothing for it and you don’t cost Russia anything for it. They collect, you collect, they collect.  No cost to Russia, no net benefit to Germany.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    reply 164

    “I’ll just have to blitz you in our next games to drive the point home that it’s a good move for Germany and a bad move for Russia!”

    Net 0.

    You lose it without any defense and thus you net nothing for it and you don’t cost Russia anything for it. They collect, you collect, they collect.  No cost to Russia, no net benefit to Germany.

    That’s a pretty oblique challenge, esp. as I think that post was right after one by trihero or NPB. But no matter, the game’s afoot.

    Now, if you are going to offset the gain that the Allies score on the retake, you have to apply the same logic to Russia retaking Archangel. Applying the same thing there means that the Archangel attack goes from netting 0.5 on average to netting -1.5, since Russia retakes it as well.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    No, because what Russia gets out of it does not effect Germany.  It only effects Russia.  So if Russia retakes Archangelsk they are at -2 for Karelia -3 for the Infantry unit they will most likely lose to the defending tank + 5 for the tank they killed netting them 0.

    If they also retake Archangelsk and manage not to lose anything doing it, then they are +2


  • Which is of stronger use, 1 German Armor in E. Europe or 2 Russian Infantry in W. Russia?

    If I could trade an inf for a tank all day with Russia, I would. That would mean Russia alone would entirely stop Germany’s income with their own, and then the other 2 Allies would win without breaking a swat.

    You lose it without any defense and thus you net nothing for it and you don’t cost Russia anything for it.

    You’re wrong by your own argument. Russia nets nothing for taking Karelia back, because like you said, it’s taking their own territory. Germany gained +2 IPCs there no matter how you look at it. +2 IPCs is more economical than +0.5 IPCs.

    You’re also actually wrong twice. If you say that leaving nothing in Karelia nets nothing, then you can’t count Karelia’s +2 in your Archangel math either, because you are also leaving nothing in Karelia in your Archangel example.

    You can still hold on to your argument by saying “tri, you’re right in the economic sense, but the larger picture favors me because xxxx.” What you can’t do is hold on by saying +0.5 is better economically than +2.

    Tri, you are mis-quoting me when you post

    Maybe all I’m really trying to say switch is that you tried to give statistics proving that blitzing Archangel is more economical on the small picture. That was all your 67% nonsense of doing same or better. Not only did I prove you wrong in that small picture using your own statistics, but Jennifer came along later and showed that the chances are even higher of losing a tank without damaging the infantry. You have no further argument to offer other than positioning and the large picture. You tried to show us on the small picture how you were right, but I see no admission of wrong calculation. It just seems like both you and Jen are saying that the small picture still favors Archangel.

    Blitzing Archangel can be the right move, but not in the general sense if things are going average. Maybe that’s what we do all agree on.

    In what specific case are you actually referring to, Switch? Because now I’m just curious, you keep saying “if so and so happens then it is a wise move” but I never get a good idea of what it is. I’ve heard vague references like if Russia does a Ukraine/W. Russia attack or German stacks Karelia, but what is it really? I don’t see that Germany can really afford to normally stack any of those areas more than 1 inf high early on, and that’s quite manageable for the Russians. With no German Karelia stack, archangel offensive pieces like arm/art are completely unexposed, so you could do something like what Ender said earlier and send 1 inf + 4 arm, and the odds of success there are much better than 2 inf 1 fighter. Those arm aren’t out of position to counterattack German units next turn, nor are they exposed.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    Back when I was still attacking Ukr…  :wink:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=9354.0

    No fair picking a game where I under-defended Tokyo!  Tokyo is irrelevant to the discussion at hand :-P
    (but I DID make you work for that one, and I DID use a German ARM to blitz to Archangel…  :evil: )


  • That was a funny game read. Most of it was a blur since I just scanned through it, but that dice reroll in the Pacific was a deathblow to the Japanese O_O

    Man how many carriers did Darth buy with the US? I thought I saw like a carrier every round for the first few rounds O_O?!

  • 2007 AAR League

    @trihero:

    That was a funny game read. Most of it was a blur since I just scanned through it, but that dice reroll in the Pacific was a deathblow to the Japanese O_O

    Man how many carriers did Darth buy with the US? I thought I saw like a carrier every round for the first few rounds O_O?!

    He built about 8 or 9 (plus the fighters to fill them) in the game I just played against him. Never encountered that before, didn’t know how to handle it, and finally goofed with my fleet positioning such that defeat became inevitable…


  • He built about 8 or 9 (plus the fighters to fill them) in the game I just played against him. Never encountered that before, didn’t know how to handle it, and finally goofed with my fleet positioning such that defeat became inevitable…

    O_O! Quick link to that game? And how would you deal with it now?

    Personally I wouldn’t use so many carriers, I mean one carrier can bring in like 4 fighters to a fight if you wanted to. But maybe it’s some insane new strategy!  :lol:

  • 2007 AAR League

    @trihero:

    He built about 8 or 9 (plus the fighters to fill them) in the game I just played against him. Never encountered that before, didn’t know how to handle it, and finally goofed with my fleet positioning such that defeat became inevitable…

    O_O! Quick link to that game? And how would you deal with it now?

    Personally I wouldn’t use so many carriers, I mean one carrier can bring in like 4 fighters to a fight if you wanted to. But maybe it’s some insane new strategy!  :lol:

    Okay I exaggerated - now that I check, he had 6 ACs in the Pacific by the end. Anyhow, here’s the link: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=10153.90

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Dealing with carriers just means you need to out position him and use submarines.

    Sub kill carrier.  Fighters go splash.

    Did this in a game once.  Sailed my subs right under his battleships, sank his aircraft carriers and submerged.  It was beautiful.

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