Stalinist Russia was far worse than Nazi Germany.
The Soviet Union could outprodce Germany anyday in the war. Here is an example: Summer of 1942, German production of tanks was 500/ month. Russian tank production was 1200/ Month. The difference only keeps getting bigger from there. How can any nation win against an enemy that can outproduce them and have an endless amount of manpower? Stalin would not have surrendered… Ever. In the long run, Russia would have won the war of attrition and taken Berlin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen-Grenadier_Division_der_SS_(1st_Russian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
Also take into account that the entire organisation was declared a criiminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremburg Trials. There’s more than enough blood on the hands of the SS to paint the whole damn lot with the same brush.
thank you. some one with some sense. all nazzi’s are evil. anyone who commits or supports genocide is evil. communist russia was 200 times better than germany. the still wouldn’t be able to take over such a large country.
That’s not what we’re saying. The important thing to note is that they were fighting merely for country. If genocide was taking place at the hands of their country, but without the typical soldier’s knowledge, then how can you say that ALL their soldiers were evil? While some of the “death squad” types were in the know about these horrible things, I highly doubt that the ENTIRE German army knew about it, and thus, can’t be held ENTIRELY accountable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen-Grenadier_Division_der_SS_(1st_Russian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
Also take into account that the entire organisation was declared a criiminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremburg Trials. There’s more than enough blood on the hands of the SS to paint the whole damn lot with the same brush.
thank you. some one with some sense. all nazzi’s are evil. anyone who commits or supports genocide is evil. communist russia was 200 times better than germany. the still wouldn’t be able to take over such a large country.
That’s not what we’re saying. The important thing to note is that they were fighting merely for country. If genocide was taking place at the hands of their country, but without the typical soldier’s knowledge, then how can you say that ALL their soldiers were evil? While some of the “death squad” types were in the know about these horrible things, I highly doubt that the ENTIRE German army knew about it, and thus, can’t be held ENTIRELY accountable.
line up those citizensn and shoot them. line up those jews and gas them. it would be amazing how someone so stupid could live in the army getting shot at every day. i think most still supported it because its was the only way for them to get ahead. they were conditioned to kill, and eventually submitted to what every reason. probably not out of hatred but out of what they thought was necessity. guessing thats the mentatilty the french had also so they out right rebel when paris was surrendered. maybe the air froce, and the tank crews didn’t know but most of the german infantry must of known.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen-Grenadier_Division_der_SS_(1st_Russian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
Also take into account that the entire organisation was declared a criiminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremburg Trials. There’s more than enough blood on the hands of the SS to paint the whole damn lot with the same brush.
thank you. some one with some sense. all nazzi’s are evil. anyone who commits or supports genocide is evil. communist russia was 200 times better than germany. the still wouldn’t be able to take over such a large country.
That’s not what we’re saying. The important thing to note is that they were fighting merely for country. If genocide was taking place at the hands of their country, but without the typical soldier’s knowledge, then how can you say that ALL their soldiers were evil? While some of the “death squad” types were in the know about these horrible things, I highly doubt that the ENTIRE German army knew about it, and thus, can’t be held ENTIRELY accountable.
line up those citizensn and shoot them. line up those jews and gas them. it would be amazing how someone so stupid could live in the army getting shot at every day. i think most still supported it because its was the only way for them to get ahead. they were conditioned to kill, and eventually submitted to what every reason. probably not out of hatred but out of what they thought was necessity. guessing thats the mentatilty the french had also so they out right rebel when paris was surrendered. maybe the air froce, and the tank crews didn’t know but most of the german infantry must of known.
OK, point taken there, but even so, not every one of 'em agreed with the morality of it all. There are some on this very forum (myself included) who are in the military, but we don’t always agree with the moral/ethical ramifications of the decisions made numerous levels above our paygrade. Do members of the military have the right to disobey orders? Only the unlawful ones. In Nazi Germany’s case, it apparently wasn’t considered “unlawful” to line up and subsequently murder innocent civilians. But still, there must’ve been those who couldn’t even stomach the idea. Of course, the Fascist ideal was that “our nation has the God-given right to trample whoever we choose, simply because we are stronger than they are.” So even the guy who never wanted to kill innocent people may get forced to do so because that is what his nation/military might expect of him.
War brings out the worst in people, and in some cases, makes them monsters. I think it could easily be compared to peer pressure. Kids try smoking pot all the time, and a lot of them may not actually want to do it for themselves, but more so because they want to “fit in” or “be part of the cool crowd”. Whatever. I know that when it was offered to me, I had no reservations; I was just curious, and the rest is history. I can’t do it now, because that could cost me my job. But I firmly believe that it is not the “soul-crushing narcotic” it’s made out to be in Reefer Madness; people just need to be made aware of what it can do.
…but as I digress…
The point I’m trying to make with the peer pressure thing is that sometimes people lose sight of what they truly believe in, just so that their friends/coworkers/comrades-in-arms won’t call them a pu55y, or maybe even because they fear retribution of some kind. But the big question is: If you don’t want to try smoking pot, or you don’t want to shoot a defenseless human being in the head, then WHO F**KING CARES? The truly strong would have some damn conviction and stand by their beliefs, and I guarantee that this fits a few of 'em.
Considering the immense amount of Anti-Jewish/Communist/Democratic propaganda at the time and the general feeling of the populace during the enactment of the Nuremburg Laws in 1935*, the Nazi Weapons law of 1938**, Propaganda fils such as “Der Ewige Juden” (The Eternal Jew a.k.a. The Wandering Jew). And other events such as Kristallnacht* (be sure to note the dates between kristallnach and the nazi weapons law), and the forced deportation of Jews on October 28, 1938 (read under Kristallnacht).
There is little doubt that the German army as a whole knew what was happening in the death camps but didn’t even have the moral resolve to stop it from continuing……a solid and steadfast result of the years of brainwashing they had all been subjected to. Those soldiers were no longer people, but one-track-minded zombies bent on the enaction of the will of their beloved fuhrer for the good of the state and the aryan race. Sure a few of them disagreed with the reasoning of the state, but there are so few in number that they were nearly non-existent. Those who tried to stem the tide were either crushed into submission, or were sent to the camps to be worked to death.
Exactly. People always change their minds when their lives are threatened. And if changing your mind leads you to join the winning team, (at the time anyway) then it makes it all the more easy to become one of those monster types. I’m only saying that it’s perfectly simple, using the Nazis as THE example here, to turn ordinary guys into a$$holes. The Fascist point-of-view being drummed into their minds is what led them to believe that they were superior, that they could kill anyone they wanted, and that the ascendance of the master race was paramount. Because of all that, Herr Hitler had at his disposal a fighting force that, besides being exceptionally well-trained and equipped, was also ruthless and cold-blooded. Like a pack of blood-thirsty rabid dogs, they literally hungered for violence and bloodshed, so long as it was the “weaker non-Aryans” who were being killed. And as far as being brainwashed, of course it happens! That’s what the H.J. was all about. Grabbing kids at an early age, and “educating” them in the ways of the Aryan master race.
But as you pointed out, and also to go along with my point about peer pressure and conviction, there were definitely those who resisted the idea of genocide and cold-blooded murder. Unfortunately, such things had already become a growing trend, and thus such dissenters were killed and replaced with another willing zombie.
…and for the record, I voted Yes for this poll.
Sorry, AgentOrange but brainwashing =/= peer pressure.
I didn’t say that brainwashing and peer pressure are the same thing, just that BOTH of them were going on under the Nazi regime.
See how all 3 of these were used by Hitler and his goons to mold themselves “the perfect army”?
Stalin was much better at brainwashing… If his soldiers didn’t like the fact they had to fight Germans and carry one rifle and 5 rounds for every 5 soldiers… the NKVD would shoot them by machine gun on the way back.
If you said one ill word you were sent to gulag for 20 years
If you didn’t like the way your treated you could participate in “reconnaissance thru combat” essentially being forced to run to the Germans, while getting cut down by machine gun fire and having no weapons for the sole point of allowing Soviet observers the observation of German positions. Thus you die to gain knowledge so artillery could aim better.
Even Hitler doesn’t do this crap. That is barbarity --worse to kill your own people for less reason than you kill the enemy.
@Imperious:
Stalin was much better at brainwashing… If his soldiers didn’t like the fact they had to fight Germans and carry one rifle and 5 rounds for every 5 soldiers… the NKVD would shoot them by machine gun on the way back.
If you said one ill word you were sent to gulag for 20 years
If you didn’t like the way your treated you could participate in “reconnaissance thru combat” essentially being forced to run to the Germans, while getting cut down by machine gun fire and having no weapons for the sole point of allowing Soviet observers the observation of German positions. Thus you die to gain knowledge so artillery could aim better.
Even Hitler doesn’t do this crap. That is barbarity --worse to kill your own people for less reason than you kill the enemy.
stalin killed out of paranoia not because he was a sadist. hitler killed all those jews out of sick and twisted pleasure. :x hitler is just plian sick and evil. i think stalin was psychotic. trotsicky would of been a much better leader
Yes Stalin was Psychotic and paranoid, but so was Hitler.
Just because one dictator killed for a “less evil reason” than the other dictator does not make them comparable in terms of which one I’d rather be subject to.
Stalin purposely starved his subjects to death during the years of collectivization, and during the war Stalin murdered the very partisans who were fighting against Hitler on Stalins side!
Watch the documentary series “Russias War: Blood Upon the Snow”, it provides alot of insight into what Soviet Russia had become and how it came to be.
The first part of the series is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX5GxMpgDas
A very interesting debate.
I also voted that the Germans would have beaten the Russians.
There is also a couple of other points that I don’t believe where mentioned but could have helped Germany achieve greater Military success in the war. If Hitler let his generals actually be generals and gave them more free reign, they could of done a lot more damage. The Germans were master tacticians, they were always outnumbered.
The extra Airpower alone the Germans could have used against the Russians instead of guarding the coast/raiding the atlantic/fighting off bombing raids would have been huge.
So my Points are:
If the Generals had more free reign (to many times on the eastern-front they could have done more…or have coordinated better attacks if it wasn’t for Hitler calling all the shots)
If they actually done any planning and prepared for a winter war… (I know they thought the war would have been over before Winter but seriously…no plan for winter fighting at all?? wow)
if Germany could have used her full-power early on, Russia would have been falling so fast they wouldn’t have much time to create defensive lines/counter-attack and sit-back and buildup in the rear…
Yes all of Russia would have been very hard to keep under control… But I think they had plans to “control” the population… Most likely kill a lot of them…, use a lot of them as slave workers and mass re-locations. Hitler wanted the land for his people so they could expand there…
20% of German ammunition production was for the air defense system to fight the British. Thousands of 88mms where deployed to defend against the British and U.S. bombing campaign. 99s where excellent anti tank weapons, and could have wrecked havoc on Russian armor. Not even the famed T34 could stand against an 88. Hundreds of thousands of men where deployed just to operate the 88s of the air defense network, and thousands more for the recovery operations after allied raids.
If Germany has only fought Russia, there would have been no allied air war, German factories would have been immensely more productive, hundreds of thousands of personnel would have been freed up, as well as tons of weapons and munitions.The Luftwaffe deployed thousands of aircraft for the air defense network, all of which where annihilated once the P-51 Mustang showed up. Even with the air campaign, German production still went up, because Hitler had failed to begin a war economy until 1942. Imagine the matterial the Germans could have produced without the air war.
:-o
I vote No.
My reasons are posted in the Barbarossa thread, but I will reiterate here. Germanys’ industry just was not geard up for a war of this magnitude in “41”. And since Poland was already a done deal, and the French and British were already at war with Germany, they had to hold men and equipment on the "Western Front’ even if it was “All Quiet”.
The biggest problem for the Germans in the far expanses of the Soviet hinterlands was supply. The more men out there the more supplies are required for them and this requires more resources to get it there, a compounding effect. The drain is enormous! Another point about supply is that even in the modern era, armies still required the land that they were in to help supplyment their food supply. The Russians practiced a "scorched earth’ policy. They burnt everything that they couldn’t take with them; Homes, barns, fields, and even outhouses! They slaughtered livestock, and put the carcuses in the wells. They created a ‘no mans’ land as they retreated, starving even their own people. This all put an even greater strain on an already streached supply network. An Army moves on its’ stomach is a famous quote, I don’t remember who said it, be he knew what he was talking about.
So, it does not matter how many guns you have at your disposal, if you can’t feed your troops in the feild to shoot them.
And it is a given, if Hitler had not interfered with his Generals, the war would have draggedon another 3 to 5 years perhaps.
And a lot more human suffering.
Crazy Ivan :roll:
Napoleon said it. i knew excataly who said it when i saw it ( pretty sad but i did have to be napoleon for my science project)
:-o
Ah Yes!
It was the little corperal!
Who became an Emperor.
:roll:
Sorry M36 was it not an SS unit that massacered US troops at Malmady?
I was unaware of this.
But regardless of what the bastards did, you cannot label an entire military organization because of the actions of one unit. There are Marines who have done such things, that does not make the Marine Corp an evil organizations. We are still the best warriors on the planet.
@M36:
I was unaware of this.
But regardless of what the bastards did, you cannot label an entire military organization because of the actions of one unit. There are Marines who have done such things, that does not make the Marine Corp an evil organizations. We are still the best warriors on the planet.
What about le grand armee?
